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Post by greedo on Oct 22, 2020 23:46:37 GMT
Saw this on the FB board, and started thinking of a new way to resolve combat that does not require lining up. www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=822117968601873&set=gm.1407037586165166&__cft__[0]=AZV6uieHUGLF2kZl6_-zBA2qdqfrJw8lh0BSDfMQIABGV7dnYOifFBeH-3bWTVV7GuaM5iwItzIBrpO3uWGvPsAZYpQmMbyg45nJkX8Qmyl0C405iAsSY_Bb4uWpvZYhJe-_RNrEkm5LFJIFCQ6KBKvM-baKGmiJ-HxApitozVCBAL2__kJNSj3kQvse9LeTfTo2wnWVoblG1H0MH9y5bVpw&__tn__=EH-RThis is very much taking from the great game Impetus that uses this system. Exactly 1/2 BW combats should be shifted enough in either direction so that a combat can take place with a primary and secondary. So how about this: Two elements can be front side to front side contact, and the majority (over 1/2BW) of the base is the "primary" element as if it was perfectly corner to corner lined up. Any element that has minority contact (<1/2BW) would be an overlap unless it is the primary element for another combat. That would mean that the combat in the link could happen without elements having to be left behind. And no sliding required, so bend corner lines like the FB link can now occur aok. I shall demonstrate: A, B, C, and D are facing off against U, X, Y, and Z. AAAAABBBBBCCCCCDDDDD
___UUUUUXXXXXYYYYYZZZZZ
In this case, B and U fight each other, with U being overlapped by A.
C fights X with no overlaps
D fights Y with D overlapped by Z. |
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Post by Baldie on Oct 23, 2020 6:46:19 GMT
I have had to put up with alot this year but this needs to stop.
I play and love impets but was disgusted to find units did not line up.
This is wrong all opposing forces should line up neatly and I will not accept anything else.
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Post by snowcat on Oct 23, 2020 7:09:25 GMT
Ha ha ha ha ha! King Baldie has spoken! Heed his words!!!  |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Oct 23, 2020 12:10:08 GMT
Forcibly having to line up elements is probably the thing I dislike about DBA the most and what makes DBA not feel like a real battle, but give it a chess-like feel.
It is also one of the things that gives newcomers the hardest time to wrap their heads around.
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Post by greedo on Oct 24, 2020 6:38:43 GMT
Ok! So there appetite for this.
The two big problems would be that double overlap is impossible, and closing the door also becomes harder from the supporting element.
One possibility is that when the attackers make contact they can slide up 1/2 BW in either direction. They can choose to make full contact (elements lined up) if they want, since there is the possibility of double overlap from the corners.
If they only choose to move a little or not at all, then we go with the Partial touching system. Only 1 side would be able to overlap, and the secondary element would have to be allowed to “close the door” while moving out of the enemy TZ.
Apart from that, I think that’s it. I’d say flank attacks could work the same way but for simplicity I might force them to at least make corner to corner contact. Only the front elements can slide around.
What do you guys think? Any better ideas you’ve seen?
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Post by Baldie on Oct 24, 2020 9:55:00 GMT
I feel slightly I'll just reading this thread but I am unable to look away.
Good luck chaps.
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Post by stevie on Oct 24, 2020 10:17:34 GMT
It all seems unnecessarily complicated to me.
And just what is it exactly this is trying to fix?
Yes, troops in reality could move about more...
...but lining-up is one of the penalties we have
to face when our figures are glued to set bases.
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Post by greedo on Oct 24, 2020 15:45:05 GMT
It doesn’t happen very often. Looking at the FB link you see a kinked line. The Cv Gen has to stay put because it cannot shift left to line up with the enemy. It also can’t shift right because that’s over 1/2 BW. So it seems a bit artificial.
Another idea I’ve always thought about was that if a line group moves at least 2BW forward, it can make sideways shift left or right by up to 1BW. This would allow adjustment well before contact (contact also allows 1/2 BW shift), that would allow the general cv to participate by making a rightward shift, and then another one when contact is made.
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Post by greedo on Oct 25, 2020 17:48:27 GMT
Forcibly having to line up elements is probably the thing I dislike about DBA the most and what makes DBA not feel like a real battle, but give it a chess-like feel. It is also one of the things that gives newcomers the hardest time to wrap their heads around. So Tony, is it the flat edge to flat edge that’s the problem for you (I.e no corner contact) or is it the exact one element fights one element lining up that you see as the problem? |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Oct 26, 2020 11:54:53 GMT
Forcibly having to line up elements is probably the thing I dislike about DBA the most and what makes DBA not feel like a real battle, but give it a chess-like feel. It is also one of the things that gives newcomers the hardest time to wrap their heads around. So Tony, is it the flat edge to flat edge that’s the problem for you (I.e no corner contact) or is it the exact one element fights one element lining up that you see as the problem? Both as they both feel unnatural to many players. I am not so worried about implementing anything in DBA, but more of what this would entail in any future games I will work on (ex. Renaissance.) |
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Post by bluestone28 on Oct 26, 2020 16:10:03 GMT
 and... finally this time again (  ), we have 2 differents answers : - one say that the Gallic player must slide to his left or be overlapped, - the second that only the 3 Roman units on the right can slide on their left and fight... (and worse, as there are, now, not aligned and the Cv Gen on his rear, the front Cv will die if the combat result is recoil! (er... or maybe the Cv Gen will be pushed back?) (for this particular part too, i feel not right with the recoil rules, units are not hard rectangle, they are quite fluid and for me, the recoil could be possible for this case, avoiding the CV Gen... it's recoiling not fleeing! for example if the position of the recoiling unit/of the rear one is equal or less than half base width...) i prefer the first answer as it's seem more realistic (after all, who dare to say to Cesar that he cannot fight!!! ) |
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Post by decebalus on Oct 26, 2020 16:46:02 GMT
bluestone28. The problem you show has nothing to do, with what is discussed here. For me the solution is clear: There has to be a combat (first sentence in the combat section.) The romans have to line up, they cant. So the gauls line up.
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Post by greedo on Oct 26, 2020 17:54:18 GMT
bluestone28 . The problem you show has nothing to do, with what is discussed here. For me the solution is clear: There has to be a combat (first sentence in the combat section.) The romans have to line up, they cant. So the gauls line up. Hi Decebalus, Are you saying: 1) The entire line of Romans would advance. 2) The entire line of Romans would attempt to shift leftward so that the elements would line up 3) Since the Romans cannot shift to the left, the Gauls would then shift their entire line to line up 4) The Roman General would thus end up overlapping the Gauls, but be facing nobody themselves Is that your interpretation? It does make sense, although the strict lining up seems to be a bit weird. I think Bluestone is saying that because the Romans can't line up, the Roman General wouldn't be allowed to advance into combat at all, and the group would have to move off without him. |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Oct 26, 2020 18:35:56 GMT
bluestone28 . The problem you show has nothing to do, with what is discussed here. For me the solution is clear: There has to be a combat (first sentence in the combat section.) The romans have to line up, they cant. So the gauls line up. Hi Decebalus, Are you saying: 1) The entire line of Romans would advance. 2) The entire line of Romans would attempt to shift leftward so that the elements would line up 3) Since the Romans cannot shift to the left, the Gauls would then shift their entire line to line up 4) The Roman General would thus end up overlapping the Gauls, but be facing nobody themselves Is that your interpretation? It does make sense, although the strict lining up seems to be a bit weird. I think Bluestone is saying that because the Romans can't line up, the Roman General wouldn't be allowed to advance into combat at all, and the group would have to move off without him. If the Romans decide to move the Gen with the other three elements in the group forward to make contact, then the Gauls would have to conform and if they do not want do each element would fight as if overlapped. If the Romans do not want to advance with their general then the other three elements can legally make contact and they would conform to the Gauls. |
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Post by greedo on Oct 26, 2020 19:24:15 GMT
If the Romans decide to move the Gen with the other three elements in the group forward to make contact, then the Gauls would have to conform and if they do not want do each element would fight as if overlapped. If the Romans do not want to advance with their general then the other three elements can legally make contact and they would conform to the Gauls. Tony, I see what you mean by "hard for beginners to pick up easily" |
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), we have 2 differents answers : 