|
|
Post by diades on Sept 29, 2020 19:58:42 GMT
Hi All, I wonder if I might tap your collective wisdom...
In the first century BC, when the Romans finally successfully invaded Crete, 69 BC, what was the army they fought against in DBA terms?
Was this addressed by the "missing enemies" threads soon after 3.0 was published?
|
|
|
|
Post by martin on Sept 29, 2020 21:09:26 GMT
Hi All, I wonder if I might tap your collective wisdom... In the first century BC, when the Romans finally successfully invaded Crete, 69 BC, what was the army they fought against in DBA terms? Was this addressed by the "missing enemies" threads soon after 3.0 was published? Only suggestions I can find on the interweb are Crete under Ptolemaic rule or influence, but also Rhodes very much involved... |
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Sept 29, 2020 21:17:14 GMT
That is a very good question Diades... ...yes, what army did Crete have in the first century BC? We know that Crete was heavily under the influence of the Mediterranean Pirates, who were allies of Mithridates of Pontus, but what would their army be like? I would guess (and this is pure speculation) that they would be similar to the II/31j Aitolians. (See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Caecilius_Metellus_Creticus#The_conflict_with_Crete ) |
|
|
|
Post by chaotic on Sept 29, 2020 23:04:13 GMT
Polybius says that that the Cretans "both by land and sea are irresistible in ambuscades, forays, tricks played on the enemy, night attacks, and all petty operations which require fraud, but they are cowardly and down-hearted in the massed face-to-face charge of an open battle" (Polybius, Histories 4.8.11, Paton translation, 1954). His contempt for Cretan troops is obvious, but should not be relied upon as a character reference. The mountainous Cretan terrain virtually compels an army to be made up of light infantry. One author describes Crete to be a land "over which only goats, their herders, and light-armed infantrymen might traverse with any degree of agility". Of course, Cretan archers were famous throughout antiquity, but there are also references to very effective Cretan slingers and other psiloi using "unorthodox", or what we would call guerrilla tactics. II/31j seems to give the right mix of troops for this kind of warfare, so I think stevie's suggestion is a good one.
|
|
|
|
Post by aelbert on Sept 30, 2020 7:14:39 GMT
Hi,
Didn't Philopoemen reorganise the Cretan army when he was campaigning there as a mercenary general?
Maybe along the lines of the Achaean league.
Cheers B
|
|
|
|
Post by diades on Sept 30, 2020 19:38:05 GMT
Hi All, I wonder if I might tap your collective wisdom... In the first century BC, when the Romans finally successfully invaded Crete, 69 BC, what was the army they fought against in DBA terms? Was this addressed by the "missing enemies" threads soon after 3.0 was published? Only suggestions I can find on the interweb are Crete under Ptolemaic rule or influence, but also Rhodes very much involved... Good idea thanks. Or maybe later Mithridatic influence? |
|
|
|
Post by diades on Sept 30, 2020 19:40:08 GMT
Hi, Didn't Philopoemen reorganise the Cretan army when he was campaigning there as a mercenary general? Maybe along the lines of the Achaean league. Cheers B Indeed. Christian Cameron has written two excellent novels about Philipoemen, the first covers his time on Crete. Given that Crete then descended into intercity warfare, an Achaean model may work. |
|
|
|
Post by diades on Sept 30, 2020 19:42:10 GMT
Polybius says that that the Cretans "both by land and sea are irresistible in ambuscades, forays, tricks played on the enemy, night attacks, and all petty operations which require fraud, but they are cowardly and down-hearted in the massed face-to-face charge of an open battle" (Polybius, Histories 4.8.11, Paton translation, 1954). His contempt for Cretan troops is obvious, but should not be relied upon as a character reference. The mountainous Cretan terrain virtually compels an army to be made up of light infantry. One author describes Crete to be a land "over which only goats, their herders, and light-armed infantrymen might traverse with any degree of agility". Of course, Cretan archers were famous throughout antiquity, but there are also references to very effective Cretan slingers and other psiloi using "unorthodox", or what we would call guerrilla tactics. II/31j seems to give the right mix of troops for this kind of warfare, so I think stevie's suggestion is a good one. Thanks chaotic and Stevie. Achaean does indeed have a "feels right" element, as does Attalid Pergamene. |
|
|
|
Post by diades on Sept 30, 2020 19:44:04 GMT
I have a particular conflict and theme in mind that demands a little tweaking of the suggestions. I will let you know what I end up with. Don't be surprised if it features in my next Battle Report (groans all round!)
|
|
|
|
Post by diades on Oct 2, 2020 17:15:30 GMT
So, with thanks for all the proposals and no particular academic rigour...
In "The New Achilles" by Christian Cameron about Philipoemen, the city of Gortyna provides a contingent of hoplites. In battle, a contingent of heavy foot, the hoplites, are required to tempt the Spartan phalanx to engage before more specialist troops can take advantage. I like the idea of a proud hoplites tradition in some Cretan city states who have agricultural plains to protect. Would they have converted to pike? Why? Even those Greeks who became pseudo legionaries are suggested to have kept spears.
So...I would like some hoplite Spears in my Cretan Army.
If I average the element count from all option variants of Ptolemaic c, Achaean League, Aitolians and Attalid Pergamene and swap pike for spear, I get:
Kn(gen), LH, 3xSp, 3x4Ax, 4xPs and I think Hilly Aggression 0 feels right.
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Oct 2, 2020 19:04:24 GMT
3Kn(gen), LH, 3xSp, 3x4Ax, 4xPs and I think Hilly Aggression 0 feels right. That looks plausible Diades. It might also be worth giving them littoral Pirate Allies:- 3 x javelin armed disembarked oarsmen Psiloi. (Crete was not known as a major sea power after the fall of the Minoans,
but the Pirates of the first century BC were)
Yes, Hilly regions cannot have a Waterway... ...but if their opponents are the defenders, they might use one... (and it would give Cretans a chance to adjust their order of battle to fit the terrain) |
|
|
|
Post by paulhannah on Oct 2, 2020 20:13:19 GMT
Kn(gen), LH, 3xSp, 3x4Ax, 4xPs and I think Hilly Aggression 0 feels right. What? No Cretan archers? Here I was hoping for... 1 x 3Bw (Gen)
11 x 3Bw or PsThis list brought to you by the FBU (Fast Bow Union). --Winks n' grins |
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Oct 2, 2020 20:54:56 GMT
Kn(gen), LH, 3xSp, 3x4Ax, 4xPs and I think Hilly Aggression 0 feels right. What? No Cretan archers? Here I was hoping for... 1 x 3Bw (Gen)
11 x 3Bw or PsThis list brought to you by the FBU (Fast Bow Union). --Winks n' grinsAs the self-appointed chairman of the “Committee Representing Auxiliary Personnel” who’s unfortunate acronym spells ‘C.R.A.P.’, I was hoping for 12 x 4Ax. (Come to think of it, C.R.A.P pretty much sums up all 4Ax troops in DBA...)  |
|
