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Post by Baldie on Aug 27, 2020 23:04:18 GMT
Had a few demo games with a chum today
Crushed his Medieval Germans in game 1 with the might of my EAP force
Then game 2 his Germans crushed my Athenians
We were doing a small point Lart game afterwards so my opponent wanted to use his newly painted Medieval Germans rather than the matched lists I had lovingly prepared, Greece vs Persia and Philistine vs O&G who were acting as Mongols
Game 1, demo 1 first think he decided to do is go for a 6 knight force I advised this may not be wise as it could be 3 points lost if he pops. Ok he then took a 3Kn/4Bd list
Ahha says I that means you can have 4 x 3Kn/4bds and decided to dismount em before game begins. Or at least I think that is what I mean. Oh good how do I dismount. Mmmmmm not sure and feth me ten seconds in he asked me a question I had absolutely no idea how to deal with.
I have never dismounted in a single game so had no clue
Do you have to dismount all of them or can you say keep 2 as knights and the other two dismount as bd
Do you have to dismount them all at set up or can you do it mid game for a pip per base
I know most tourneys I go to say choose to mount or dismount at beginning of game 1 and then stick with that choice all game so never actually seen it and did not know where to find it in the book.
As it happens he decided to dismount everything and stick with that
To rub salt in the wounds he clearly bribed my Persian General in the 100 point lart game as he fought in 5 rounds of combat, somehow surviving having two of the units he was leading die and ending up commanding light horse. out of 5 rounds I rolled four 1s which cost me a great opportunity to break him.
Fab game though or at least it was till the German pike and foot knights caught up with my sparabara and immortals.
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Post by macbeth on Aug 27, 2020 23:57:59 GMT
Hi Baldie,
The Purple Tome, Army Lists Chapter (p31) Troop Definitions and Terminology (para 3 line 2) states
"/" between 2 codes or prefix numbers directs that either can be used by all (not some of) those elements. If between a mounted and a foot type it directs that all, (not some of) the mounted type can be replaced by the foot type before deployment.
So your gut feeling was correct by dismounting all
cheers
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Post by sheffmark on Aug 28, 2020 8:09:09 GMT
Yeap, only if they are listed as // can the element be deployed as mounted but then dismounted in the game for a PIP, e.g. Tibetan army III/16 General and cataphracts 4Kn//Sp.
(Though some tournaments seem to have a local rule banning dismounting, certainly the Bakewell ones do, as it can give some armies a distinct advantage in a limited army competition. That is you either get most people bring that particular army, which gets boring fighting the same thing, or some people are disadvantaged because they don't have the figures for that army.)
I think there's a Tony v Mitch game on YouTube where Mitch uses Tibetans and does some dismounting.
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 28, 2020 13:54:41 GMT
Yeap, only if they are listed as // can the element be deployed as mounted but then dismounted in the game for a PIP, e.g. Tibetan army III/16 General and cataphracts 4Kn//Sp. (Though some tournaments seem to have a local rule banning dismounting, certainly the Bakewell ones do, as it can give some armies a distinct advantage in a limited army competition. That is you either get most people bring that particular army, which gets boring fighting the same thing, or some people are disadvantaged because they don't have the figures for that army.) I think there's a Tony v Mitch game on YouTube where Mitch uses Tibetans and does some dismounting. Back in the days of DBA 2.2 dismounting was restricted in most all the cons I went to because it was broken and they did not have the restrictions that they do in DBA 3.0. We have found that this is no longer an issue in DBA 3.0. |
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Post by paulhannah on Aug 29, 2020 14:04:21 GMT
Dismounting is now more of a challenge in "Purple". On quick glance, the IV/18 Lithuanian army looks to be the equivalent of elite Panzer Grenadiers, right? Well, if they are, our group is still struggling to unlock the key to their success. But, in a sense, that just adds to enjoyment of running such armies, i.e. trying to discern effective dismounting tactics.
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Post by sheffmark on Aug 30, 2020 10:15:13 GMT
Interestingly Paul I think it was Lithuanians that caused the ban on dismounting in some of our local tournaments.
As I remember it, the tournament was set up so your army had to have a set number of LH elements. A number of canny people worked out that Lithuanians were ideal, being able to dismount as Bw and then blow away all the other LH.
I can't remember exactly but I think they certainly were 2 of the top three and maybe even came 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
Now you could say that's fair enough and well done for the people who spotted that and came with the best army, but for the others it quickly became apparent, early in the day, that they didn't have much of a chance.
There was a debate about it afterwards but I think the view was taken that if we want to encourage people to come along to tournaments then you have to make it as fair as possible for people, including those who don't have masses of figures to build 'killer' armies, so, rightly or wrongly dismounting was banned.
If you think Lithuanians are good, may I recommend Qaramita; 4 x Cm which can dismount as Sp and 4 x Cm which can dismount as 3Lb!
Of course you need the PIPs at the right time otherwise their effectiveness is reduced, but then isn't that the same for most games?
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Post by Baldie on Aug 30, 2020 10:59:36 GMT
Interestingly Paul I think it was Lithuanians that caused the ban on dismounting in some of our local tournaments. As I remember it, the tournament was set up so your army had to have a set number of LH elements. A number of canny people worked out that Lithuanians were ideal, being able to dismount as Bw and then blow away all the other LH. I can't remember exactly but I think they certainly were 2 of the top three and maybe even came 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Now you could say that's fair enough and well done for the people who spotted that and came with the best army, but for the others it quickly became apparent, early in the day, that they didn't have much of a chance. There was a debate about it afterwards but I think the view was taken that if we want to encourage people to come along to tournaments then you have to make it as fair as possible for people, including those who don't have masses of figures to build 'killer' armies, so, rightly or wrongly dismounting was banned. If you think Lithuanians are good, may I recommend Qaramita; 4 x Cm which can dismount as Sp and 4 x Cm which can dismount as 3Lb! Of course you need the PIPs at the right time otherwise their effectiveness is reduced, but then isn't that the same for most games? So does that mean you can dismount on set up for free and in game for a pip per dismount? Or do you set up mounted and dismount each element for a pip per element as their first move? |
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Post by timurilank on Aug 30, 2020 11:56:36 GMT
At the moment of deploying your troops, certain mounted troops may swap for dismounted types at no cost, horses are left in camp or tethered a safe distance away from the field of combat.
After the deployment phase, mounted that can may dismount costing one pip per element.
Tactical moves, 2nd paragraph, line three.
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Post by timurilank on Aug 30, 2020 12:07:20 GMT
Sheffmark,
Lithuanians are fun but can be a double-edged sword.
Once you dismount you may not remount and therefore LH or Cv mobility is sacrificed.
Once dismounted, the command distance is reduced from 20BW to 8BW, a factor easily overlooked during game.
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Post by Baldie on Aug 30, 2020 15:42:37 GMT
At the moment of deploying your troops, certain mounted troops may swap for dismounted types at no cost, horses are left in camp or tethered a safe distance away from the field of combat. After the deployment phase, mounted that can may dismount costing one pip per element. Tactical moves, 2nd paragraph, line three. Cheers |
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Post by macbeth on Aug 30, 2020 23:51:57 GMT
Back in the 2.2 days when most of the Later Medieval European armies were 3Kn//4Bd the mechanism appeared to be broken and most Australian tournaments banned the practice - (originally you had to choose at deployment and then later you had to commit to either the foot or mounted option for the duration ).
I allowed the dismounting in mine with one simple modification. Dismounting could not be a group move. With that in place the mechanism did not appear to be broken in my events for three major reasons.
1. The rules stipulated that these elements HAD to start the game on their horses. (It meant becoming Bd was a PIP cost AND you might not want to take the risk of putting your 3Kn in a BUA to defend it when they had the PIPs to get off their horses.
2. Dismounting was a 2 PIP move, so the line of evil Nuclear Burgundian Knights took a long time to get off their horses.
3. There was a hotly contested prize - the Magister Militum which used the adjusted score based on my element rating system - and I rated a 3Kn//4Bd element as the sum of both types making Nuclear Burgundians a very expensive option and torpedoing the chances of the user picking up the Maurice trophy.
I find the current dismounting rules that allow a choice at deployment to be a more "broken" option, but on the other hand most if not all of the old guard Nuclear Medieval armies are now 3Kn/4Bd and the rule stipulates that the choice at deployment is all or nothing.
The other Panzer Grenadier army that may have caused the banning of dismounting is the III/54b Qaramita with a core of Cm//Sp and Cm//Lb - I hope to build this army and use it in all its glory some day soon
Cheers
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