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Post by richard4th on Aug 9, 2020 13:34:57 GMT
They say a picture paints a thousand words - but I wan't able to upload mine...
Trying to be brief... Two units of Light horse are attacking from the South but have also managed to outflank (LH 'North' - also two units) so they catch the enemy - in this case two Camels -in a sandwich.
LH 'South' contact first followed by LH 'North' who are providing rear support
After combat both LH 'South' recoil, leaving Camels facing them but still with LH 'North' in contact with their rear.
I'm struggling to work out what happens on the Camel's bound.
It makes sense that they now turn and face LH 'North' and continue combat but I'm not sure whther this is mandatory or optional?
Tactically the better move would be to disengage from LH 'North', moved forward into contact with LH 'South' where they are likely to get support from other units.
Any ideas anyone?
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Post by martin on Aug 9, 2020 14:58:44 GMT
They say a picture paints a thousand words - but I wan't able to upload mine...
Trying to be brief... Two units of Light horse are attacking from the South but have also managed to outflank (LH 'North' - also two units) so they catch the enemy - in this case two Camels -in a sandwich.
LH 'South' contact first followed by LH 'North' who are providing rear support
After combat both LH 'South' recoil, leaving Camels facing them but still with LH 'North' in contact with their rear.
I'm struggling to work out what happens on the Camel's bound.
It makes sense that they now turn and face LH 'North' and continue combat but I'm not sure whther this is mandatory or optional?
Tactically the better move would be to disengage from LH 'North', moved forward into contact with LH 'South' where they are likely to get support from other units.
Any ideas anyone?
If an element fighting face to face with an opponent recoils or is destroyed, any elements fighting that same opponent recoil from the flank or rear. Not sure I’m reading this correctly, but if LH south bounces off, so do his mates. (When you say ‘providing rear support’ do you mean attacking the enemy in their rear?).
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Post by paddy649 on Aug 9, 2020 17:27:57 GMT
I don’t have access to my purple but from memory - if LH South recoil and counted LH North as an overlap then both units recoil. So you end up with the Camels facing LH South 30mm away with LH North facing Europe rear 30mm away.
During the Camels turn they are in 2 TZs so would probably have to stay put or move to contact LH South. I think they could turn and contact LH North if they really wanted. I’m not sure they could move without contacting as this would move further away from one or other LH element. Else they could stay put.
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Post by bob on Aug 9, 2020 22:48:16 GMT
Some loose use of words here. May I reconstruct. Two elements of Light Horse move into contact with the front edge of a camel element which has a second, like element behind (this would be the north camel). Now does the North light horse "out flank" the camels by hitting them in the flank or do they hit the north camels in the rear. The latter seems to be a sandwich.
2 LH on the bottom(South, facing a Cm with a Cm behind with 2 LH in contact with its rear (North). Two decker camel sandwich. North LH LH Cm Cm LH LH South
If the North light horse hits the back of the north camel, then that element will turn to face and fight a separate combat. If the south light horse (+3) are beaten by the south Camels (+3) then they recoil. Likewise the north LH vs north camels. If either Cm are recoiled, then it is destroyed.
Let's say both LH are recoiled. Then the south camel is in TZ of south LH but I think not in TZ of north LH which is now 30mm recoil and camel depth further north. Likewise the north camel, 60mm away from south LH.
North LH LH
Cm Cm
LH LH South
Maybe I did not understand the original scenario.
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Post by goragrad on Aug 10, 2020 2:31:12 GMT
That is the way I read it, bob.
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Post by paddy649 on Aug 10, 2020 6:03:50 GMT
Bob - you are right. I was thinking only one Camel element.
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Post by martin on Aug 10, 2020 9:49:45 GMT
Bob - you are right. I was thinking only one Camel element. Me too ✔️
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Post by stevie on Aug 10, 2020 10:44:57 GMT
Well, Richard4th did say in his original post:- After combat both LH 'South' recoil, leaving Camels facing them but still with LH 'North' in contact with their rear. From the this I get the impression that the following is the situation. Either this... Or this... LH LH ↓ LH ↓ LH Cm Cm Cm ↑ LH Cm LH ↑ LH LH Martin, Bob, Paddy and Goragrad are of course all correct, as Combat Outcomes (on page 11, paragraph 4) says:- “A supporting element in close combat against an enemy element’s flank or rear recoils if the friendly element in combat with that enemy’s front recoils, flees or is destroyed (see figure 19c).” Note that in the second situation both Camel elements will turn-to-face the LH front-edges after the Move Phase, but before combat is resolved.
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Post by richard4th on Aug 10, 2020 11:28:26 GMT
...I should have used a thousand words to compensate for the lack of picture..
The situation was as Stevie identified as "either this" in his post above...
I'd not picked up on the fact that once the LH in combat recoil, then so do the LH providing support to the enemies rear..
If you will all indulge me for one further question.....
LH are +2, with a +1 for having support to their rear.
Cm are +3 with a -1 because they have LH attacking from their rear.
The fact that there are 2 x LH attacking the rear rather than one doesn't get any additional benefit - would the 2nd LH unit in the rear be better employed elsehwere?
Any tactical suggestions???
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Post by stevie on Aug 10, 2020 13:12:54 GMT
Almost Richard, almost... * The Cm have a combat factor of 3 with a -1 for being attacked in the rear. * The LH have a combat factor of 2 with a +1 for their rear support, but also a -1 for being overlapped by the second non-engaged Cm element. But you’re quite right...the rear attacking LH gains no advantage from being in a column and having its own rear support (although it might come into play if the LH column recoils and the Cm it was facing turns around and attacks it). Personally, I’d have the spare rear-supporting LH element attacking the Cm’s rear to one side (but not engaged) so that its Threat Zone pins the second Cm element, thus preventing the Camels from ‘hard flanking’ the LH columns if they do recoil.
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Post by bob on Aug 10, 2020 22:46:10 GMT
So, it is not a double decker camel sandwich, but rather a single decker, with a camel on the side. I did not get that from the written picture. Good catch by Stevie.
However, I do not follow his tactical advice. What does "attacking the Cm's rear to one side, but not engaged" mean?
LH ↓ LH Cm Cm ↑ LH LH
↓ LH LH but not touching the right camel. Cm Cm ↑ LH LH
Then we get. The left camel is in TZ of both upper and lower LH. That camel can attack either LH straight ahead or about face and attack upper. The right camel can turn to face upper right LH, but cannot attack either in flank.
LH LH Cm Cm ↑ LH LH
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Post by stevie on Aug 11, 2020 4:38:56 GMT
Ah....my fault for not being precise. (I should have said “have the spare LH in the Cm’s rear unengaged and to one side”) But you’ve sussed-out what I meant Bob.
A further refinement would be to have the unengaged LH in such a position so that if its mate does recoil, the pair of them end up in a straight line single group, like this:-
LH ↓ LH Cm Cm ↓ ↑ LH LH
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Post by martin on Aug 11, 2020 9:12:00 GMT
Another option for the ‘spare’ LH at the rear :- if it was in a legal position to do so it could attack the flank of the surrounded Cm, and help make sure it lost the fight.
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