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Post by diades on Jun 25, 2020 20:48:36 GMT
If an element is providing overlap and has front contact with enemy side, if the enemy is destroyed and the element in full frontal contact does not pursue, does the overlapping element pursue?
For example, if an element of cavalry was destroyed by cavalry, with 3knights "closing the door", do the 3Kn pursue?
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Post by paulisper on Jun 25, 2020 20:59:17 GMT
No
P
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Post by Baldie on Jun 25, 2020 21:47:44 GMT
Now that's the kind of thread we need round here |
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Post by paulisper on Jun 25, 2020 21:48:28 GMT
Now that's the kind of thread we need round here Call me Mr Brevity 😉 P |
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Post by diades on Jun 26, 2020 11:55:08 GMT
Mr Brevity it is then.
I remember being asked an open question by a senior partner of a well known consultancy, who was clearly in dire straits having to rely on my skills. I answered fairly honestly, much like you. His immediate come back was "Are you by any chance Northern?" 😊 , which of course compared to him I am!
Meanwhile, back in DBA land...I prefer your answer to be correct, but it was a slightly leading question...
Firstly I was challenged on this point and could not find a definitive reference, so if someone could point me at it, it would be appreciated.
An element whose close combat opponents recoil...does this mean that the Knights in my example do not have opponents, but are merely counting as an overlap? This tallies with your answer and prevents a unit of mounted overlapping pursuers running right across an enemy line in a bound.
If the Knights do not have close combat opponents, then surely they can be shot at, which is contrary to current interpretation? If they may not be shot at, they must be in close combat and overlapping. If they are in close combat, then do they not pursue?
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gonatas
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Post by gonatas on Jun 26, 2020 13:15:53 GMT
Hi Diades
I know we had a discussion about this the other day. I had another close look at the rules last night and thought it would be useful to put my analysis on the forum (to be shot down if appropriate).
I think you have hit the nail on the head and that the critical word - with regard to pursuit - is "opponents".
My thinking is as follows:
1 In the Distant shooting section second paragraph " Shooting is not possible if either shooters or target are in close combat or providing rear support, but is possible to or from elements that are overlapping and not in close combat".
There are two types of overlap. One where there is close combat and one where there is not. Where the overlapping element is in close combat it cannot be shot at.
2 In the Close combat section " Where an element is in close combat both to front and to flank or rear or in close combat to its front and overlapped only it and the element to its front fight each other".
This confirms that there are two types of overlap and also that there are two types of close combat. The two types of close combat are 1 frontal and 2 flank or rear
3 in the combat outcome section we find the first reference to an opponent. The opponent is always the element by whom or to whom damage can be inflicted as a result of rolling the dice. In other words the opponent is always the enemy element in frontal combat with your element.
4 Finally, in the Pursuit section third sentence "Otherwise an element whose close combat opponents recoil, flee or are destroyed.....must immediately pursue, but only if etc"
Here is the final piece of the puzzle in the reference to "close combat opponents". the Knights who are hard flanking do not have opponents even though they are in close combat.
Fun though it would be, with a Knight to close the door at the end of a line and watch it pursue into hard flanks all along the line I think the answer to your question must be "No"
(Now where have I read that before!)
Cheers
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Post by ronisan on Jun 26, 2020 13:51:07 GMT
In shorter words: only the element having diced and won the dicing duel may pursue (+ any column behind it).
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Post by lkmjbc on Jun 26, 2020 13:56:36 GMT
To further Gonatas' reply (not that it really needs "furthering" as it is quite comprehensive) diagram 15c of the rules provides an example.
Joe Collins
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Post by Baldie on Jun 26, 2020 14:51:02 GMT
Mr Brevity it is then. I remember being asked an open question by a senior partner of a well known consultancy, who was clearly in dire straits having to rely on my skills. I answered fairly honestly, much like you. His immediate come back was "Are you by any chance Northern?" 😊 , which of course compared to him I am! Meanwhile, back in DBA land...I prefer your answer to be correct, but it was a slightly leading question... Firstly I was challenged on this point and could not find a definitive reference, so if someone could point me at it, it would be appreciated. An element whose close combat opponents recoil...does this mean that the Knights in my example do not have opponents, but are merely counting as an overlap? This tallies with your answer and prevents a unit of mounted overlapping pursuers running right across an enemy line in a bound. If the Knights do not have close combat opponents, then surely they can be shot at, which is contrary to current interpretation? If they may not be shot at, they must be in close combat and overlapping. If they are in close combat, then do they not pursue? You never have to ask a Yorkshireman where he is from he will tell you himself |
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Post by diades on Jun 26, 2020 18:57:48 GMT
Henry Davenport: Have you got any Yorkshire in you? No? ......Would you like some?
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Post by Les1964 on Jun 26, 2020 19:14:24 GMT
You never have to ask a Yorkshireman where he is from he will tell you himself I'm the same , as I don't like being called a Brummie .  |
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Post by diades on Jun 28, 2020 16:04:27 GMT
Hi Diades I know we had a discussion about this the other day. I had another close look at the rules last night and thought it would be useful to put my analysis on the forum (to be shot down if appropriate). I think you have hit the nail on the head and that the critical word - with regard to pursuit - is "opponents". My thinking is as follows: 1 In the Distant shooting section second paragraph " Shooting is not possible if either shooters or target are in close combat or providing rear support, but is possible to or from elements that are overlapping and not in close combat". There are two types of overlap. One where there is close combat and one where there is not. Where the overlapping element is in close combat it cannot be shot at. 2 In the Close combat section " Where an element is in close combat both to front and to flank or rear or in close combat to its front and overlapped only it and the element to its front fight each other". This confirms that there are two types of overlap and also that there are two types of close combat. The two types of close combat are 1 frontal and 2 flank or rear 3 in the combat outcome section we find the first reference to an opponent. The opponent is always the element by whom or to whom damage can be inflicted as a result of rolling the dice. In other words the opponent is always the enemy element in frontal combat with your element.
4 Finally, in the Pursuit section third sentence "Otherwise an element whose close combat opponents recoil, flee or are destroyed.....must immediately pursue, but only if etc"
Here is the final piece of the puzzle in the reference to "close combat opponents". the Knights who are hard flanking do not have opponents even though they are in close combat.
Fun though it would be, with a Knight to close the door at the end of a line and watch it pursue into hard flanks all along the line I think the answer to your question must be "No"
(Now where have I read that before!)
Cheers
Thank you, Gonatas. Nailed it, I reckon. Phew. |
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Post by sheffmark on Jun 29, 2020 17:48:34 GMT
Henry Davenport: Have you got any Yorkshire in you? No? ......Would you like some? Suspect the writers pinched this from Phil Lynott asking the same thing about Irish. |
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