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Post by ronisan on Jun 21, 2020 8:38:42 GMT
Hello Paulisper, in my opinion no. 1 is correct and I‘m with Stevie:
Moving Into Contact [on page 9]:-
* Elements contacted this bound by an enemy ...
---► when combat ends automatically conform.
If the Cv would not be in front edge contact (e.g. slightly backwards) the solution would be no. 4.
Cheers, Ronald
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 21, 2020 9:21:40 GMT
It's improbable, yes, but not impossible. In the example, it looks like the Cv had recoiled the first chariot and then the Bd recoiled the second chariot. You have to ask how the player commanding the chariot force had got himself into this mess in the first place!! P. Britons' bound. Two LCh attack the Cv. Combat tied. (Cv rolls one more than the LCh.) Romans' bound. Bd hit the LCh in the flank forcing the overlapping LCh to turn to face. My explanation. There may be other ways of getting to the same point. |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 21, 2020 11:30:26 GMT
The key to this is two-fold: 1 - Does the corner-to-corner contact apply here? If so, then the chariot cannot recoil and is destroyed. Initially, I was opposed to this perspective, but if you apply the concept of overlapping in combat to this situation, then you could say that the chariot and Cv are in corner-to-corner contact and the chariot is destroyed, as it cannot start its recoil move 2 - If you do allow the recoil, then I believe the chariot should turn at the end of the combat round and fight the Cv next bound P. If the front corner counts as part of the front edge, which I think it would have to for 1 to apply, that would create other difficulties. Consider fig 16c. Ax B's front corner is in contact with the side edge of Ps Y. If we treat the corner as part of the B's front edge, the Ps will be unable to recoil and so would be destroyed if it loses the combat against Ax C. My view is that edges are edges and corners are corners and never the twain......Oh, hang on a minute. Well you know what I mean. ("Meet me on the point where the edges join when the lights are coming on and I'll be there...." etc etc) |
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Post by paulisper on Jun 21, 2020 12:27:11 GMT
The key to this is two-fold: 1 - Does the corner-to-corner contact apply here? If so, then the chariot cannot recoil and is destroyed. Initially, I was opposed to this perspective, but if you apply the concept of overlapping in combat to this situation, then you could say that the chariot and Cv are in corner-to-corner contact and the chariot is destroyed, as it cannot start its recoil move 2 - If you do allow the recoil, then I believe the chariot should turn at the end of the combat round and fight the Cv next bound P. If the front corner counts as part of the front edge, which I think it would have to for 1 to apply, that would create other difficulties. Consider fig 16c. Ax B's front corner is in contact with the side edge of Ps Y. If we treat the corner as part of the B's front edge, the Ps will be unable to recoil and so would be destroyed if it loses the combat against Ax C. My view is that edges are edges and corners are corners and never the twain......Oh, hang on a minute. Well you know what I mean. ("Meet me on the point where the edges join when the lights are coming on and I'll be there...." etc etc) I'm with you on this one - I think if you say that the two corners are in contact and this causes the recoiling unit to be destroyed, then we're opening up a whole can of worms. For me the 'rear corner' or 'rear edge' aspect is if the element cannot physically recoil, because it has one or the other of these actually in contact with a friendly or enemy element at the start of the recoil and thus cannot move at all. The chariot, in the example, can recoil easily by sliding into the 40mm square gap, so should be able to do so... P. |
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Post by diades on Jun 21, 2020 13:50:45 GMT
For my penn'orth, the LCh recoils.
In its bound it can either turn to face the cavalry in combat, move directly to its rear, or stand still. If it stands still it must conform to the cavalry at the end of the movement phase.
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Post by stevie on Jun 21, 2020 16:24:53 GMT
I largely agree with you Diades...with one small disagreement.
Tactical Moves [on page 8]:-
“(A Tactical Move) cannot be used by an element in close combat (i.e. someone has front-edge contact),
which can break-off only by a recoil or flee outcome move.”
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Post by lkmjbc on Jun 21, 2020 17:00:55 GMT
The front corners are not the front edge.
Joe Collins
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 21, 2020 18:08:01 GMT
Just to expand the discussion:
A recoiling element which contacts an enemy element ends its move there. So far, so clear. If it contacts the front edge of an enemy element with, for example, its rear corner, does it then turn to face that element?
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Post by paulisper on Jun 21, 2020 18:12:00 GMT
Just to expand the discussion: A recoiling element which contacts an enemy element ends its move there. So far, so clear. If it contacts the front edge of an enemy element with, for example, its rear corner, does it then turn to face that element? I would say yes, as the conforming rules would apply here... the combat would then be resolved next bound P |
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 21, 2020 21:33:28 GMT
Just to expand the discussion: A recoiling element which contacts an enemy element ends its move there. So far, so clear. If it contacts the front edge of an enemy element with, for example, its rear corner, does it then turn to face that element? I would say yes, as the conforming rules would apply here... the combat would then be resolved next bound P Unless the victor pursues, obviously. In that case, presumably the contacted element conforms either to the side or the rear edge of the recoiling element? |
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Post by paulisper on Jun 22, 2020 7:15:59 GMT
I would say yes, as the conforming rules would apply here... the combat would then be resolved next bound P Unless the victor pursues, obviously. In that case, presumably the contacted element conforms either to the side or the rear edge of the recoiling element? That’s an interesting case and logically I would say that it keeps fighting the unit to its front that has pursued and remains in contact. The other element will conform to the rear of the pursued element and contribute a -1. P |
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Post by andrea on Jun 22, 2020 14:21:00 GMT
I‘m with Stevie and too rule for Paulisper's option no. 1.
Moving Into Contact [on page 9]:-
* Elements contacted this bound by an enemy ...
---► when combat ends automatically conform.
So LCh turn to face the Cv at the end of the combat.
I leave to you the corner-to-corner contact discussion, too metaphysical for my taste.
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Post by diades on Jun 25, 2020 20:44:19 GMT
For my penn'orth, the LCh recoils. In its bound it can either turn to face the cavalry in combat, move directly to its rear, or stand still. If it stands still it must conform to the cavalry at the end of the movement phase. Having now read h rules, it always helps, and discussed it, and what's more encountered it in real play, I am now firmly of the opinion that the LCh is not able to recoil and is destroyed. I think that is Paulisper option 1. |
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Post by paulisper on Jun 25, 2020 21:01:48 GMT
For my penn'orth, the LCh recoils. In its bound it can either turn to face the cavalry in combat, move directly to its rear, or stand still. If it stands still it must conform to the cavalry at the end of the movement phase. Having now read h rules, it always helps, and discussed it, and what's more encountered it in real play, I am now firmly of the opinion that the LCh is not able to recoil and is destroyed. I think that is Paulisper option 1. The Facebook discussion has ended up with rejecting option 1 and has moved to a broad acceptance of option 2, which I’m comfortable with 😄 P |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jun 25, 2020 21:08:55 GMT
Having now read h rules, it always helps, and discussed it, and what's more encountered it in real play, I am now firmly of the opinion that the LCh is not able to recoil and is destroyed. I think that is Paulisper option 1. The Facebook discussion has ended up with rejecting option 1 and has moved to a broad acceptance of option 2, which I’m comfortable with 😄 P That is how we play. |
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