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Post by Roland on May 15, 2020 12:38:29 GMT
What is the maximum angle ( if any) that a group move may drift during a forward move in game play? If there is not a hard rule, it seems like 45 degrees would be reasonable otherwise a battle group starts to look like a dance line at Radio City Music Hall.
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Post by paulisper on May 15, 2020 13:30:24 GMT
No maximum limit on wheeling, if that’s what you’re asking - it all depends on the max move of the slowest element in the group...
P
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Post by Roland on May 15, 2020 13:33:25 GMT
No maximum limit on wheeling, if that’s what you’re asking - it all depends on the max move of the slowest element in the group... P In a round about way, I believe you answered my question. If I read into your reply it would suggest that for a group move there is only move straight ahead ( or back), wheel or a combination of the two. Correct?! |
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Post by stevie on May 15, 2020 13:55:07 GMT
Actually Roland, the third paragraph of Tactical Moves on page 8 specifically states that:- “A group can only move forwards. It moves as if entirely of the slowest type included. Each of its elements must move parallel to or follow the first to move, move the same distance, or wheel forward (multiple times – see the FAQ) through the same angles with the group’s entire front-edge pivoting forward around a front-corner.” No other changes in frontage, direction or facing can be made, even within a TZ...” However, paradoxically it then goes on to say:- “...except to ‘pivot’ (see figure 12a), wheel and/or slide sideways to line up in an enemy TZ (!), or to conform in close combat.” So a group can only move straight ahead (unless wheeling)... BUT...as soon as any part of it enters an enemy Threat Zone it can shuffle sideways to line-up with that enemy. So the overall effect to an outside watching bystander is a group moves as if it had inclined... ...but only while in a Threat Zone. You can get a similar 'inclining' effect (i.e. move a bit forwards and move a bit to the side) by making a 'double-wheel', first to the right and then to the left, all in a single bound, but the distance covered is quite small unless the group has a lot of movement...and the longer the line the less the effect is. (I made an in-depth study of 'double-wheeling' when I composed that "Playing DBA on a Grid".
It's on page 6 of this:-vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fanaticus-dba/images/9/9e/Playing_DBA_and_HoTT_on_a_Grid_%28v1%29.pdf/revision/latest?cb=20200327194301 ) |
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Post by Roland on May 15, 2020 14:05:51 GMT
Excellent. So, essentially, it would all come down to pips. Given the comparable freedom of movement of a single element relative to a group move,( limited in GG only by its movement rate, enemy ZoCs and potential intervening elements,) an elaborate fighting withdrawal or lateral shift in the battle line would required each element to be allocated a pip to execute.
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Post by arnopov on May 15, 2020 14:16:46 GMT
Exactly Roland! Single element move can shuffle a line like crazy, especially with the very generous moves in 3.0.
And considering how plentiful pips are in DBA (compared to say DBM or DBMM) it's actually quite common to dance, shimmy, sashay, swaparoo in relative proximity to the enemy. Fast troop having a massive advantage in that department.
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Post by medievalthomas on May 19, 2020 18:53:25 GMT
A Group can only change direction by Wheeling though multiple Wheels are permitted.
Exception: A Group entering or in an opponent's TZ may slide/pivot to line up with that TZ (this does cost Movement Allowance unless in contact with front edge and sliding to conform).
An Individual Move can be in any direction provided no front corner exceeds the element's movement allowance.
It cannot "sashay", however, in relative proximity to the enemy as an individual element must obey the TZ rules and can only move to line up with or engage the enemy element exerting the TZ.
TomT
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Post by mthrguth on May 19, 2020 21:21:34 GMT
It would be interesting to put this down on graph paper. My goal would be to plot out a couple of wheels followed by moves, then wheels, and compare where we wind up after the double wheel. With infantry and cavalry.
Guth
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Post by medievalthomas on May 20, 2020 21:27:00 GMT
I think if you do enough mirco wheeling you can probably end up with something that looked like an angle move. I discussed the concept of mirco wheeling defeating the "group move" restrictions with Phil but he didn't think it enough of a problem to legislate against as a practical matter. But a minimum wheel of 1/2BW unless conforming would be a remedy.
TomT
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Post by scottrussell on May 21, 2020 8:49:22 GMT
My initial attempt:
Heavy infantry, 15 mm base depth, 2 BW move, max allowed pivot:
Single element (for illustration only, obviously this could make a single element move in any direction) Forwards 3.4 cm, sideways 2.0 cm
Two element group Forwards 3.9 cm, sideways 1.0 cm
Three element group forwards 4.0 cm, sideways 0.4 cm
Open order infantry, 20mm base depth, 3 BW move, max pivot:
Single element forwards 4.0 cm, sideways 4.3 cm
Two element group forwards 5.6 cm, sideways 2.0 cm
Three element group forwards 5.8 cm, sideways 1.4 cm
Some of the results seem a bit counterintuitive, but will become clear if you try it out on graph paper.. So for example the 20 mm base depth elements end up slightly further forwards after the first wheel because the diagonal dimension of the base is slightly greater.
So in summary the double wheel is perhaps just about worth it with a 2 element group but with larger groups the sideways displacement is negligible.
scott
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Post by stevie on May 21, 2020 10:44:24 GMT
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Post by scottrussell on May 21, 2020 10:50:06 GMT
I entirely agree. All we are doing is wheeling a line. My only reservation is that the differences, minimal though they seemed to be, appeared to be consistent. On reflection (over the last two hours or so), i suspect than my initial (15mmm base depth element) measurement was incorrect and therefore the subsequent 20mm base measurement were consistent because they were correct.
Scott
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Post by arnopov on May 21, 2020 14:05:31 GMT
n: width of the line, in BW p: movement, in BW x: sideways drift, in cm y: forward advance, in cm If the double wheel is done in 1 bound: x 1=p^2/(2*n) y 1=2*p/n*SQRT(n^2-(p/4)^2) If the double wheel is done in 2 bound: x 2=2*p^2/(n) y 2=4*p/n*SQRT(n^2-(p/2)^2) Note that x 2=4*x 1n (BW)
| p (BW)
| x1 (cm)
| y1 (cm)
| x2 (cm)
| y2 (cm)
| | 2 | 2 | 1.00 | 3.87 | 4.00 | 6.93 | | 2 | 3 | 2.25 | 5.56 | 9.00 | 7.94 | | 2 | 4 | 4.00 | 6.93 | 16.00 | 0.00 | | 3 | 2 | 0.67 | 3.94 | 2.67 | 7.54 | | 3 | 3 | 1.50 | 5.81 | 6.00 | 10.39 | | 3 | 4 | 2.67 | 7.54 | 10.67 | 11.93 | | 4 | 2 | 0.50 | 3.97 | 2.00 | 7.75 | | 4 | 3 | 1.13 | 5.89 | 4.50 | 11.12 | | 4 | 4 | 2.00 | 7.75 | 8.00 | 13.86 | | 5 | 2 | 0.40 | 3.98 | 1.60 | 7.84 | | 5 | 3 | 0.90 | 5.93 | 3.60 | 11.45 | | 5 | 4 | 1.60 | 7.84 | 6.40 | 14.66 | | 6 | 2 | 0.33 | 3.99 | 1.33 | 7.89 | | 6 | 3 | 0.75 | 5.95 | 3.00 | 11.62 | | 6 | 4 | 1.33 | 7.89 | 5.33 | 15.08 | | 7 | 2 | 0.29 | 3.99 | 1.14 | 7.92 | | 7 | 3 | 0.64 | 5.97 | 2.57 | 11.72 | | 7 | 4 | 1.14 | 7.92 | 4.57 | 15.33 |
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Post by Baldie on May 21, 2020 15:50:51 GMT
Glad to see lock down has at least provided the opportunity to answer those burning questions.
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Post by haywire on May 21, 2020 18:48:40 GMT
A n=2 p=4 pivot is interesting because it enables you to do a loop and end up behind yourself. We don't allow that one.
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