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Post by diades on Apr 18, 2020 16:34:31 GMT
An element of heavy chariot contacts a light chariot that is the end element of a group.
The heavy chariot should conform, but is unable to due to other elements.
The group should therefore conform, but is also unable to due to other elements.
The light chariots therefore fight as if in full contact and overlapped.
The full contact bit...does that mean that the next unit in the group, a bow, counts as an overlap against the heavy chariot, because if the heavy chariot was in full contact, it would?
How is the result affected if the bow is already in combat?
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Post by paulisper on Apr 18, 2020 17:09:31 GMT
An element of heavy chariot contacts a light chariot that is the end element of a group. The heavy chariot should conform, but is unable to due to other elements. The group should therefore conform, but is also unable to due to other elements. The light chariots therefore fight as if in full contact and overlapped. The full contact bit...does that mean that the next unit in the group, a bow, counts as an overlap against the heavy chariot, because if the heavy chariot was in full contact, it would? How is the result affected if the bow is already in combat? I would say that the Bw doesn’t count as an overlapping element in this case, as the LCh is fighting as if overlapped itself, ie. it has no support from the group. P |
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Post by ronisan on Apr 20, 2020 10:56:01 GMT
? How does this „group“ look like, if the LCh is the end element and the next element (behind?) is Bw  😜 |
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Post by menacussecundus on Apr 20, 2020 11:33:42 GMT
An element of heavy chariot contacts a light chariot that is the end element of a group. The heavy chariot should conform, but is unable to due to other elements. The group should therefore conform, but is also unable to due to other elements. The light chariots therefore fight as if in full contact and overlapped. The full contact bit...does that mean that the next unit in the group, a bow, counts as an overlap against the heavy chariot, because if the heavy chariot was in full contact, it would? How is the result affected if the bow is already in combat? I would say that the Bw doesn’t count as an overlapping element in this case, as the LCh is fighting as if overlapped itself, ie. it has no support from the group. P Not sure I agree with your reasoning here, Paul. It is possible for both elements in a combat to be overlapped and both suffer the -1 penalty. In fact it's quite common. If the group as a whole is unable to conform, is it not possible for the contacted element - in this case the LCh - to conform? |
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Post by sheffmark on Apr 20, 2020 13:11:40 GMT
I'm presuming the Hch is overlapping the open flank of the Lch?
I would probably say the Hch should be overlapped by the Bw.
Diagram 13c and d on pages 22/23 are probably the nearest you get to the situation except in both cases it's the attackers who have the overlap but in some cases a double overlap for a) not conforming and b) having an overlapping element.
However if the Bw is in combat it wouldn't normally count as an overlap, so don't see why it would here.
In terms of whether the Lch could conform anyway, the rules say: "If conforming to a front edge contact by contactors is prevented by part-element spacing (.......) contacted elements or groups must either conform or fight as if in full contact and overlapped."
I would argue that as the Lch is part of a group at the beginning of the move it is not a single element and therefore does not have the option to detach it's self and conform. If the group, of which the Lch is a part element can't conform then it shouldn't.
You could argue that the Lch is an element which is part of a group and as such because the above phrase doesn't say 'contacted single elements' but merely "contacted elements" it could detach if it so wished.
However I think reading the whole paragraph in context the "contacted elements" refers to single elements as that has been the distinction all through the paragraph.
By the way, why is the phrase "If this is not possible, the move doesn't happen" in the 1st paragraph of Moving Into Contact With The Enemy on page 9, 5th line, as the rules go on to give examples of these types of situation where it does happen?
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Post by paulisper on Apr 20, 2020 14:19:01 GMT
I would say that the Bw doesn’t count as an overlapping element in this case, as the LCh is fighting as if overlapped itself, ie. it has no support from the group. P Not sure I agree with your reasoning here, Paul. It is possible for both elements in a combat to be overlapped and both suffer the -1 penalty. In fact it's quite common. If the group as a whole is unable to conform, is it not possible for the contacted element - in this case the LCh - to conform? I need to see diagrams to fully work through... P |
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Post by paulisper on Apr 20, 2020 14:21:03 GMT
By the way, why is the phrase "If this is not possible, the move doesn't happen" in the 1st paragraph of Moving Into Contact With The Enemy on page 9, 5th line, as the rules go on to give examples of these types of situation where it does happen? Because the whole sub-section is a mess and needs rewriting to fit in with the subsequent diagrams and FAQ rulings... P |
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Post by diades on Apr 20, 2020 18:01:49 GMT
Thanks for the replies.
If someone can advise how to provide a graphic, I will.
In the meantime, viewing from behind the group, the light chariot was on the right hand end of a line, with an element of bow being the next element in the line to its left. The heavy chariot contacted the right of the front edge of the light chariot. Neither of the contacting elements (heavy chariot contactor nor light chariot contactee) could conform because of other elements.
We played as per paulisper's first reply. The bow was destroyed in the first combat, so the light chariot originally in a group ended up in double overlap 1-4 down to the heavy chariot, which effectively delivered the battle winning kill as a result.
The circumstances were unusual, but if "creatable", would be a great way of playing Alexander's incisive charges in DBA.
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Post by andrea on Apr 27, 2020 13:07:25 GMT
if you click reply top right, you'll go into advanced mode window coming with button for inclusion of pictures. Picture inclusion links to an url, meaning you have to save the picture somewhere in the web (flickr, photobucket, etc.) before attaching it to your post. I hope I am correct and it clarifies: I am not an IT guru.
Yet, I would be glad to see a graphic as the situation you described it is very interesting and not easy to picture mentally.
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Post by lkmjbc on Apr 27, 2020 14:04:14 GMT
By the way, why is the phrase "If this is not possible, the move doesn't happen" in the 1st paragraph of Moving Into Contact With The Enemy on page 9, 5th line, as the rules go on to give examples of these types of situation where it does happen? Because the whole sub-section is a mess and needs rewriting to fit in with the subsequent diagrams and FAQ rulings... P Ding, Ding! We have a winner.
Guys, I rewrote this tons of times... and not just me...others as well.
This is what we got.
Yes, I did point out the contradiction.
Oh well... We know what it means.
Joe Collins
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Post by medievalthomas on Apr 27, 2020 17:47:10 GMT
We needed to structure the rules so that the diagrams and text were in one place and could refer to each other. "Move doesn't happen" is a possible out come but the intent is that this be very rare.
You raise one of the murky points re fighting as if lined up (see Diagram 13 for help). I would rule that the Bow does overlap provided it would if "fully lined up" (so no if the Bow is itself in contact). Never liked the phantom overlap rule as this encourages the moving player to get into no line up situations as this is beneficial (and even more so if it allows them to dodge overlaps as in this example).
It used to be that the defender tried to set up no possible line up situations to avoid having to fight now its the attacker that wants to do this to get the benefit of the phantom overlap. Simpler and better if we got rid of.
To introduce new comers to DBX, I use a completely rewritten and reorganized version of this rule. After they get the hang of it I show them the Purple book which they will need to master to deal with DBA 3.0 tournament play.
TomT
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Post by sheffmark on May 3, 2020 8:12:27 GMT
In terms of the rule I'm not sure it's so easy for the attacker to manufacture the situation.
As a defender it's much simpler as all you have to do is do multiple wheels from a flank to create a concave position, whereas the attacker has to rely on the defender putting themselves in an awkward position, so on balance I think it's a good rule to stop a defender shutting down the game and halting opponent's attacks where the defender would be at a disadvantage.
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Post by medievalthomas on May 6, 2020 21:10:48 GMT
Its less easy for the attacker but not impossible. You need to move one of your elements into position to prevent full line up then take advantage of the extra phantom overlap.
TomT
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😜
