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Post by snowcat on May 5, 2020 4:35:52 GMT
I like 'first Ps lost counts as zero', and 'destroyed Generals count as 1 element lost instead of 2' regardless.  This is the sort of scenario specific tinkering that I like. I always thought that a potential weakness of DBA was that some armies could be defeated by losses of troops that were considered expendable historically. It also opens the opportunity to tinker within a scenario (e.g. Spartans can have two elements as Spartiates; they cause -1 to enemy Sp but count as 2 elements lost; thus giving Epaminondas a target for his uber-phalanx!). But this is only scenario specific unless there is a huge overhaul of the army lists, indicating which elements are core troops and which expendable. DBA does it to a degree with Hordes and Scythed Chariots but some armies would ignore Psiloi too, particularly if they were a small minority of the troops available. Cheers Jim I think this adjustment to victory conditions makes good sense for all games incl tournament etc. |
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Post by stevie on May 5, 2020 8:46:26 GMT
Oh I think that quibbling over ‘1-in-36’ as opposed to ‘none-in-36’ is pretty superficial. 1 in 36 IS practically none...it’s once in a blue moon, at the very extremity of good/bad luck, and you’d have to play lots and lots of Ps v HI before you ever see it happen. CF 2 v CF 5 = no chance of the CF 5 being doubled (zero%). CF 2 v CF 4 = no chance of the CF 4 being doubled (zero%). CF 2 v CF 3 = 1 chance in 36 of the CF 3 being doubled (2.8%). CF 2 v CF 2 = 4 chances in 36 of the CF 2 being doubled (11%). CF 2 v CF 1 = 9 chances in 36 of the CF 1 being doubled (25%). Hmmm... so to support your changes, you are happy with a once in a blue-moon single-element Ps destroying a single-element Sp in Good Going even though the Sp can never destroy the Ps, causing it to flee? Dare I say it but it sounds...ahistorical!   Oh I don’t know Jim, there is a military term to cover this situation...it’s called attrition. Consider in reality a long line of skirmishing Psiloi engaging a long line of Spearmen. Each Psiloi would cause a few casualties to their opposing enemy in each 15 minute time-slot. Eventually the accumulated casualties, although spread over several targets, would amount to something significant, and one of the targets would eventually say “sod this for a game of soldiers!” and be off. One of the beauties of DBA is that it has no paperwork or on-table markers. But to show attrition, occasionally a whole element has to be removed. Anyway, if it’s to be a choice between a ‘once-in-a-blue-moon’ event representing attrition, or having all Ax/Bow/etc being too weak against heavy foot, AND it helps with the reserve issue encouraging historical formations, AND it also helps to make breakthroughs in the centre more likely, then I’d say it was worth it...the advantages far out-way this insignificant disadvantage (which not a disadvantage at all as it is merely simulating attrition). |
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Post by jim1973 on May 5, 2020 9:45:45 GMT
Anyway, if it’s to be a choice between a ‘once-in-a-blue-moon’ event representing attrition, or having all Ax/Bow/etc being too weak against heavy foot, AND it helps with the reserve issue encouraging historical formations, AND it also helps to make breakthroughs in the centre more likely, then I’d say it was worth it...the advantages far out-way this insignificant disadvantage (which not a disadvantage at all as it is merely simulating attrition). Ha! I'll remember the attrition argument when my opponent gets a 6-1 on Turn 2. I guess my Hoplites overindulged on the wine the night before! But perhaps it is a small price to pay for a better game. Particularly if it increases the number of Ps heavy armies fielded. Cheers Jim |
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Post by stevie on May 5, 2020 11:16:02 GMT
My turn to say “Ha!”...  ...if the commander of a hoplite army does everything possible wrong, and lets a lone Spear element without side-support be attacked by a lone Psiloi (CF 3 v CF 2), then I think they deserve to have the very occasional ‘once-in-a-blue-moon’ 1 chance in 36 disaster. But when they do things right (CF 3 +1 for side-support v CF 2) it’ll never happen...unless overlapped. Remembering of course that Hordes are the only foot that ever pursue Psiloi, so even Blades with the new combat factor of 4 will never pursue Psiloi into a double-overlap position (a CF of 4 v CF 2 has zero chance of being doubled...and with one overlap so it’s CF 3 v CF 2 there is only 1 in 36 chance). And Iphicrates’ ‘peltasts’ (which the army lists have to class as Ps, because the 3Ax under the DBA system is incapable of doing their historical job) did succeed in destroying a Spartan ‘Mora’ of about 500 men simply by skirmishing against them. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lechaeum ) How’s that for historical accuracy, which can’t be reproduced adequately with the current DBA rules. |
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Post by jim1973 on May 5, 2020 11:42:18 GMT
My turn to say “Ha!”... ...if the commander of a hoplite army does everything possible wrong, and lets a lone Spear element without side-support be attacked by a lone Psiloi (CF 3 v CF 2), then I think they deserve to have the very occasional ‘once-in-a-blue-moon’ 1 chance in 36 disaster. But when they do things right (CF 3 +1 for side-support v CF 2) it’ll never happen...unless overlapped. Remembering of course that Hordes are the only foot that ever pursue Psiloi, so even Blades with the new combat factor of 4 will never pursue Psiloi into a double-overlap position (a CF of 4 v CF 2 has zero chance of being doubled...and with one overlap so it’s CF 3 v CF 2 there is only 1 in 36 chance). Not quite. Easy to isolate the end of the line without "doing everything possibly wrong". My Psiloi are often (historically) hanging around the edges of the battle line. Cheers Jim |
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Post by stevie on May 5, 2020 11:59:05 GMT
If your opponent allows you to have your Psiloi floating freely so they can outflank his hoplite line,
without using his own troops to counter them, then they ARE doing everything wrong!
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Post by jim1973 on May 5, 2020 13:45:27 GMT
If your opponent allows you to have your Psiloi floating freely so they can outflank his hoplite line, without using his own troops to counter them, then they ARE doing everything wrong! I'm not explaining myself clearly. You can put the Ps IN the main battleline (at the end of your line against the last Spear), isolate the end Sp, and fight 2v2 (overlap) with the Ps no chance of being destroyed. Currently, the Ps are 2v3 so have the "once in blue moon chance ". The change will paint the moon a new colour. Being flanked by Ps should be dangerous. But not in the frontal melee of the main battleline. I just don't see Ps frontally defeating heavy infantry on good ground historically and the attrition argument doesn't hold water when this match up can be achieved relatively easily early in the game. This mechanic may very well make for a better game and that is probably all the justification it needs. As we all know, no rules are perfect. Cheers Jim |
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Post by greedo on May 5, 2020 15:49:52 GMT
I'm not explaining myself clearly. You can put the Ps IN the main battleline (at the end of your line against the last Spear), isolate the end Sp, and fight 2v2 (overlap) with the Ps no chance of being destroyed. Currently, the Ps are 2v3 so have the "once in blue moon chance ". The change will paint the moon a new colour. Being flanked by Ps should be dangerous. But not in the frontal melee of the main battleline. I just don't see Ps frontally defeating heavy infantry on good ground historically and the attrition argument doesn't hold water when this match up can be achieved relatively easily early in the game. This mechanic may very well make for a better game and that is probably all the justification it needs. I had not considered this one. The hard flanking by Ps. It's still a problem today, but it's the chance of recoil/fast death has now increased... Although having Ps that can more easily recoil heavy infantry gives you a bit of a choice: Do you put them on the wings to protect your side's flanks, or do you put them out front to disrupt the enemy battleline (or at least chase off his Ps)? This becomes a real tactical choice, which is neat. That said, I had forgotten the hard flanking of Ps against HI. It still seems like a good idea with the -1, since there are a lot of advantages, but we do want to ensure that the scales don't tip too far in the other direction ("urgh, how can my legions ever bloody WIN?!") |
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Post by stevie on May 5, 2020 16:31:16 GMT
If your opponent allows you to have your Psiloi floating freely so they can outflank his hoplite line, without using his own troops to counter them, then they ARE doing everything wrong! Being flanked by Ps should be dangerous. But not in the frontal melee of the main battleline. I just don't see Ps frontally defeating heavy infantry on good ground historically and the attrition argument doesn't hold water when this match-up can be achieved relatively easily early in the game. As Phil Barker once said...“We shouldn’t make rules to prevent players from making mistakes”. If Spears are in good going but their shield wall is disordered, then why on Earth should they be as good as well ordered organized Spearmen in a steady shield wall against a skirmish attack? Is there no situation whatsoever in which skirmishers can ever catch Spears at a disadvantage!? You may well perceive Hoplites as being totally invulnerable to all kinds of missiles...but I prefer to consider disordered Hoplites as being just a tiny bit more vulnerable. (And notice how I keep mentioning CF 2 troops...Bows are CF 2 as well you know.
Should disordered Hoplites always be invulnerable to Bowfire as well?)We are only talking about 1 chance in 36... and only if they are not in a nice well ordered shield wall. And I wouldn’t consider a 1 in 36 chance (2.8%) to be “achieved relatively easily”. None in 36, or 1 in 36...hardly a game changer, or anything to be worth worrying about. |
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Post by greedo on May 5, 2020 18:14:30 GMT
Another thing to consider would be the CV 3 units. It prevents the Ax and the Bw from being wiped out easily, but the same problem exists for the hard flanking as it did with Ps.
3Ax on the side of the battleline will be more able to recoil/kill heavy infantry.
Wb without rear support look like they have the same % to QK from the front, so that looks ok, although the Wb now won't have to be deep, so can extend their battleline.
Most other rules sets prevent Skirmishers from charging Heavy Infantry at all, EXCEPT when they are disordered or hitting a flank, so in DBA, a lone 4Sp could be considered "disordered" since it has lost it's Shield Wall protection..
I also agree that 1 in 36 is microscopic probabilities. Right now Ps have a 1/12 chance of recoiling side supported Spears, which is so small, it makes sense to leave them on the wings. With the -1 change, they have a 1/6, which then becomes a tactical decision where to put your Ps...
Dang it Stevie, now I'm leaning back to the -1 as a pretty good cure for a lot of things... Need to play test.
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Post by jim1973 on May 6, 2020 1:39:49 GMT
The Sp element at the end of the line is most likely to be isolated because its neighbour was recoiled (rather than due to player incompetence  ) the vast majority of times, causing overlap. So the current situation is Ps 2 v Sp (4-1)3 and provides your once in a blue moon chance of destroying the Sp (1/36). The current rules do not make the Sp invulnerable. The Ps however, cannot be destroyed by the Sp. To (mis)quote a friend "Is there no situation whatsoever in which Spears can ever catch skirmishers at a disadvantage!?". This doesn't bother me though, as historically I don't read about it, and practically, it makes sense that the skirmishers run away provided they have an avenue of escape. But I also don't read about skirmishers defeating heavy infantry in the frontal melee of the main battle line. The same situation with Sp at base CV 3 makes the equation Ps 2 v Sp (3-1)2 and the Ps has 4/36 chance (11%). That seems high historically. But it did make my early Hoplite battles more interesting as a game. I'm not talking about a stranded element caught foraging in farm. If you can find me accounts from the historians that have influenced many of your comments then I am eager to read and learn. If this is to improve the game the experience as a game then that is justification on its own. But picking holes in PB's rules yet dismissing critics of your solution when knock-on effects are illustrated seems a bit rich. Cheers Jim |
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Post by goragrad on May 6, 2020 3:57:07 GMT
My understanding is that many of the troop graded a Ax (particularly 3Ax) in the DBA Army lists are irregular, looser order, less drilled spearmen. A step up from HD.
Effectively making them the one on one equivalent of Greek hoplites seems, to me at least, going a bit far.
Hypaspists, Roman auxilia, and other well drilled and equipped medium foot need to be improved (either a new class - Tom's MI - or at least the +1 against HI in GG).
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Post by greedo on May 6, 2020 17:27:13 GMT
My understanding is that many of the troop graded a Ax (particularly 3Ax) in the DBA Army lists are irregular, looser order, less drilled spearmen. A step up from HD. Effectively making them the one on one equivalent of Greek hoplites seems, to me at least, going a bit far. Hypaspists, Roman auxilia, and other well drilled and equipped medium foot need to be improved (either a new class - Tom's MI - or at least the +1 against HI in GG). Interesting. I've always thought of them as pretty distinct. 4Ax are the spearmen who aren't Hoplites, basically the medium infantry you're talking about. 3Ax I've always thought of a loose order javelin throwers. Basically beefed up Ps. The closer combat version of 3Bw.. They would only be equivalent if the Greek Hopiltes were isolated, and in that case, they wouldn't be in hand to hand. The 3Ax would be tossing their javelins and running away before the Sp can chase them. So an isolated Sp element could be considered "disordered" since it lacks it's side support/shield wall. |
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Post by medievalthomas on May 6, 2020 21:00:52 GMT
Couple points:
Spear can be defeated by two Ps - in other words swarmed. This is the proper historical relationship and so we don't need complex conditional CFs factors to get the correct historical outcome. It may be an issue in the 12 element 1 spear = 1 ps but it is not an issue for DBX mechanics. If you insist on sticking to the 12 element format you must accept its limitations not over burden the system with complex rules (with little actual game effect).
The proposal to make Aux +4/+3 was made in conjunction with some Bow going to +3/+4 (making them reciprocal medium foot). I realize this makes Aux equal to Spear 1-1 but not if Spear are in Shieldwall so can get to +5. So Spear should still win (and is better v. Mounted). I agree its a rough fix but overall seems better at least in the 12 element format. Many Aux will also be Fast and so Recoil on ties from Spear.
Ps should have counted only 1/2 element lost and Double Base 1 1/2 but I could not get this past Phil. But this problem is solved in D3H2 so is hardly a major issue.
Solutions should be simple to implement. Its conceivable that some tournament directors (and players) might accept a +1 tick up for CF v. Foot for Bow/Aux in theme tournaments etc. I don't think revising the whole CF structure and introducing the additional complexity would be either welcome or accepted.
TomT
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) the vast majority of times, causing overlap.