|
|
Post by greedo on Feb 13, 2020 2:05:55 GMT
Thought of another idea to separate out the really "Impetuous" troops like Wb and Kn from other troops (Bd, Pk, Sp etc).
A simple change. If a victor in a combat destroys of forces it's opponent to recoil, if it won with an odd roll, then it will impetuously move 1/2BW forward.
If it won with an even roll, it will not.
Wb, and Kn will ALWAYS pursue, regardless of the roll reflecting their hard to control nature.
This only applies to heavy troops and mounted (Pk, Sp, Bd, Cv, El, LH).
Light foot troops generally will not rashly pursue, and if they did, they could be more easily recalled (rather a big assumption)
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Feb 13, 2020 10:22:41 GMT
I had a similar idea some time ago Greedo.  See fanaticus.boards.net/post/10089/ Basically... In addition to the usual pursuit rules:-
Any element that rolls a ‘6’ in close combat against any enemy must also pursue, if they can
(unless they are bows, or static Art/WWg/CP/Lit/CWg, or defending a city/fort/camp, or they
are in or would enter bad going, etc).It would help simulate those occasions when troops such as Hoplites actually did pursue. Unfortunately, some of my mates disliked the idea because it is purely luck based. No, they much prefer their men to act like radio-controlled robots that always obey orders, and never ever have a mind of their own and never get over-excited and carried away with their own local successes... |
|
|
|
Post by jim1973 on Feb 13, 2020 11:07:25 GMT
I agree with your mates and with this bloke called... stevie! He said it's about the outcome. I like random pursuit but probably only if they destroy the element in front of them. That would make more sense for militia hoplites to break through in a mad rush but more disciplined hoplites (did someone say Spartans?) to regroup , wheel and attack the disordered mob (Battle of Mantinea).
Cheers
Jim
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Feb 13, 2020 14:05:10 GMT
And I agree with that bloke called Jim.  Very well then, I’ll amend my previous post. Basically... In addition to the usual pursuit rules:-
Any element that rolls a ‘6’ in close combat that destroys any enemy must also pursue, if they can
(unless they are bows, static Art/WWg,/CP/Lit/CWg, or defending a city/fort/camp, or if they are in
or would enter bad going, etc).Still luck based, but at least they’ll only pursue if they roll a ‘6’ and destroy the enemy. When they destroy an enemy on a lesser roll they’ll remain good little robots (unless they are impetuous 3Kn, SCh, Ele, Hd, or they are impetuous Pk, Bd, Wb that are victorious against foot other than Ps, as these always pursue anyway, no matter what their die roll). It does mean that sometimes, occasionally, even 4Kn, Cv, LH, Sp, Ax and Ps will pursue a destroyed foe. And that sometimes, occasionally, foot will pursue a destroyed mounted enemy if they did so with a roll of ‘6’ and their success has made them a little too cocky. However, I much prefer my original suggestion, as it better simulates such things like the Athenian Hoplites pursuing Philip’s men at Chaeronea (who weren’t destroyed), or the Roman Legionaries pursuing the Parthian Horse Archers at Carrhae (who weren't destroyed), or the Anglo-Saxon’s pursuing William the Conqueror’s Knights at Hastings (who also weren’t destroyed). I also very much like the idea of applying it to troops who are shot at as well (if they roll a '6' it shows th ey have become enraged by all the shooting and have surged forwards to get at their tormentors, even if it means breaking formation...the French at Crecy and Agincourt anyone?) |
|
|
|
Post by vodnik on Feb 13, 2020 14:19:13 GMT
... DBA 3 rules apply. The future version will be a mess if they are worked out online. But local house rules can prevail locally. In DBM(M) you can find more diferences for impatuese troops...
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Feb 13, 2020 14:30:41 GMT
Don't worry Vodnik...this is in the "House Rules" section, where new ideas are allowed.  |
|
|
|
Post by vodnik on Feb 13, 2020 19:32:38 GMT
...i see... for mee other rules favorise other armies and also other ideas...the penalty is the limit of 12 elements..
|
|
|
|
Post by jim1973 on Feb 14, 2020 0:20:21 GMT
I also very much like the idea of applying it to troops who are shot at as well (if they roll a '6' it shows th ey have become enraged by all the shooting and have surged forwards to get at their tormentors, even if it means breaking formation...the French at Crecy and Agincourt anyone?) PB does have a "Press Forward" mechanic in his Horse, Foot, Guns rules that may fit the bill for you. Jim |
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Feb 16, 2020 6:48:14 GMT
When I used this rule, I found over many games (played a campaign) that it really seemed to make Ax even weaker: nothing like an Ax (or even a Bw) pursuing into a quick double overlap.
I felt it should be restricted to troops who preferred to really get to grips with an enemy, and disdained the use of missiles.
I liked the idea that Pk or Bd might pursue Ps or LH, and get out of position.
But I don't like it for Ps, Bw, Ax et al.
|
|
|
|
Post by jim1973 on Feb 16, 2020 7:38:55 GMT
I agree with primuspilus. For shooting, it should be reserved for troops that may be likely to charge forward to disperse lighter missile troops. It can add disorder into a line and drain PIPS and may help underpowered missile troops. For close combat, it can add granularity for similar troops in scenarios (e.g. militia hoplites v regular hoplites).
Cheers
Jim
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Feb 16, 2020 11:34:00 GMT
Actually Primuspilus, the ‘roll-of-6-causes-a-random-pursuit’ effect is really quite small.
Combat factor 5 troops (Sp) v combat factor 2 troops (Ps/LH) = only 6 chances out of 36 (16.7%).
Combat factor 5 troops (Sp) v combat factor 3 troops (Ax) = only 6 chances out of 36 (16.7%).
Combat factor 5 troops (Sp) v combat factor 5 troops (Sp/Bd) = only 5 chances out of 36 (13.9%).
Combat factor 5 troops (Sp) v combat factor 6 troops (Pk) = only 4 chances out of 36 (11.1%).
Combat factor 3 troops (Ax) v combat factor 2 troops (Ps/LH) = only 6 chances out of 36 (16.7%).
Combat factor 3 troops (Ax) v combat factor 3 troops (Ax/Cv) = only 5 chances out of 36 (13.9%).
Combat factor 3 troops (Ax) v combat factor 5 troops (Bd/Sp) = only 3 chances out of 36 (8.3%).
Combat factor 3 troops (Ax) v combat factor 6 troops (Pk) = only 2 chances out of 36 (5.6%).
Combat factor 2 troops (Ps) v combat factor 2 troops (Ps/LH) = only 5 chances out of 36 (13.9%).
Combat factor 2 troops (Ps) v combat factor 3 troops (Ax/Cv) = only 4 chances out of 36 (11.1%).
Combat factor 2 troops (Ps) v combat factor 5 troops (Bd/Sp) = only 2 chances out of 36 (5.6%).
Combat factor 2 troops (Ps) v combat factor 6 troops (Pk) = only 1 chance out of 36 (2.8%).
...nonetheless it will occasionally happen...to both you and your opponent.
(Pk/Bd/Wb always pursues foot other than Ps anyway, and on a roll of '6'
they'd have 6 chances out of 36 of pursuing Ps and mounted as well)
And Bows, like static WWg/Art/CP/Lit/CWg, would be immune to any ‘random pursuits’,
as are those defending a City/Fort/Camp, or troops that are in or would enter bad going, etc.
It all depends on whether players think that their little metal soldiers should behave
like good pre-programmed remote radio-controlled robots, that always follows orders,
or whether they want to face the unexpected challenge of their men sometimes getting
carried away with their successes and occasionally disobeying...which may even turn out
to be a good thing, depending on the situation.
|
|
|
|
Post by primuspilus on Feb 17, 2020 5:11:59 GMT
Randomness for randomness' sake can be taken to excess (Remember ASL, a game played almost entirely by dice, where players were merely facilitators?).
For me there is already plenty that is beyond the control of the players. I don't mind in my games having the random pursuit applied to HI vs Mtd and Ps, since that introduces a slight vulnerability that wasn't there before, and gives Ps and LH a more tangible harassment capability.
However I have not found it as effective when applied across the board for all troop types. Likely solves a nonexistent problem, and introduces new problems?
Just my $0.02 though. YMMV of course!
|
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Feb 17, 2020 12:32:58 GMT
It’s the fact that it’s random, and beyond a player’s control, that is putting some (but not all) of my mates off the idea. However, without it some historical battles can’t be fought correctly to give historical results. Here is just a few of many examples:- Lechaeum (391 BC), where Iphicrates’ Psiloi peltasts fell back drawing the Spartan Hoplites out of position.
Chaironeia (338 BC), where the Athenian Hoplites pursued Philip’s men, drawing them out of position.
Cannae (216 BC), where Hannibals Cavalry pursued, allowing them to get right behind the Romans battleline.
Zama (202 BC), where Scipio’s Cavalry pursued, taking them out of the battle for a while until they returned.
Magnesia (190 BC), where Antiochos III’s 4Kn Cataphracts pursued some defeated Romans back to their Camp.
Carrhae (53 BC), where Legionaries pursued Parthian Horse Archers, then found themselves overlapped by the LH.
Hastings (1066 AD), where Harold’s infantry pursued the Norman Knights and were drawn down from their hill.
(Giving Harold Hordes won’t help...in his first bound he’ll just move his Spearmen in front of them to prevent pursuit)If soldiers always obey orders and stay in formation, none of the above battles would have the right outcome. And if ‘random pursuit’ happened in these battles, why can’t it also happen in our what-if battles as well? We could of course go down the DBMM route and have overly complex rules about only pursuing if there is an ‘r’ in the month, except on a Tuesday, but not before 11:am, unless it’s a leap year... ...but why not keep it simple. |
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Feb 19, 2020 18:37:33 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Feb 19, 2020 19:01:19 GMT
A wrinkle on Stevie's idea of a 6 means you pursue:
What if, when the LOSER rolls a 6 and still recoils, THEN the loser can DECIDE to pull the winner with them or not?
This would "simulate" the Ps/lighter troops making a more determined false retreat and pulling the attacker out of position. If the light troops don't roll a 6, well then they made a hash of it, and just retreated, and their foes were smarter that time.
|
|
