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Post by bob on Nov 17, 2019 0:29:54 GMT
I am trying to understand the concept of rear support. An element giving rear support cannot be shot and an element giving rear support cannot be made to turn to face, and an attack on it counts as on the front element. So which of the following is giving support? Say for a Pike
a. All the time, that is, if there is a second element of pike in frontal contact with a front element of pike, but no combat. Any time the pikes are in a two element column.
b. Only when the front element is in close combat but not when the second element does NOT give a +3 or +1 to the front element. Such as Pike vs Light Horse or Psiloi.
c. Only when the front element is in close combat against an opponent where factors are awarded? Pike vs foot other than Psiloi, or Kn, SCh or El.
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Post by chaotic on Nov 17, 2019 1:16:40 GMT
I am trying to understand the concept of rear support. An element giving rear support cannot be shot and an element giving rear support cannot be made to turn to face, and an attack on it counts as on the front element. So which of the following is giving support? Say for a Pike a. All the time, that is, if there is a second element of pike in frontal contact with a front element of pike, but no combat. Any time the pikes are in a two element column. b. Only when the front element is in close combat but not when the second element does NOT give a +3 or +1 to the front element. Such as Pike vs Light Horse or Psiloi. c. Only when the front element is in close combat against an opponent where factors are awarded? Pike vs foot other than Psiloi, or Kn, SCh or El. Interesting question Bob. May I add another question: d. can an otherwise eligible element provide support if it part of an allied contingent? |
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Post by scottrussell on Nov 17, 2019 9:25:43 GMT
Sorry, Bob. How does "b' differ from "c"?
Scott
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Post by Simon on Nov 17, 2019 9:44:09 GMT
I think it is the b/c option. This means that if the rear element is contacted by an enemy and the front element is not itself in contact with an enemy, then the rear element has to turn to face. In the same situation, the rear element can also be shot at.
Re the extra question that was added by Chaotic, I believe an allied element can give support - it is just that they can't move as a group. Agree that sounds a bit strange!
Regards
Simon
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Post by bob on Nov 17, 2019 17:59:01 GMT
Sorry, Bob. How does "b' differ from "c"? Scott b. If the front element has another friendly element of the same type lined-up directly behind them and facing the same direction, and both are in good going BUT the second element does not add a combat factor, such as Pike vs Psiloi or Light Horse c. If the front element has another friendly element of the same type lined-up directly behind them and facing the same direction, and both are in good going AND the second element does add a combat factor, such as Pike vs Blade or Knight. Do both situations qualify for "giving support" and so the second element cannot be shot? |
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Post by scottrussell on Nov 18, 2019 10:31:11 GMT
I think only "c" counts as giving support.
To rationalise it for my personal use, I assume that in situation "c" the rear ranks are giving impetus to the front ranks in a physical sense and also providing a morale boost making them less likely to recoil or disintegrate (be "destroyed"). In "b" the combat factor is only defensive (i.e. indicates the likelihood of the pike block standing rather than backing off) as the pike can't destroy the Ps or LH, only make them withdraw for a reorganisation or rethink. The rear ranks here are not actively involved in the fight. If contacted in flank or rear they are free to turn to face the new threat. If shot at there is no risk to the shooters of hitting their own troops (unless they are really bad shots).
Scott
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Post by stevie on Nov 18, 2019 11:11:46 GMT
I think Scott has summed it up quite well. I like to keep things simple, so for me:- If the rear rank gives a plus, then it can’t be shot at or turn. If the rear rank does not give a plus, it can be shot at and turn. As for why Pikes and Warbands don’t get a rear bonus against Psiloi and certain mounted, that’s fairly easy to rationalize... ...these types of opponent are trying to keep their distance by using their missile weapons (even though their front-edge is in contact and they are considered to be in ‘close combat’). Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by bob on Nov 18, 2019 15:09:37 GMT
I agree with above on this. So Figure Figure 15c. Distant combat is not correct in so far as the shooting at the Pike is concerned?
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Post by menacussecundus on Nov 18, 2019 15:46:56 GMT
I agree with above on this. So Figure Figure 15c. Distant combat is not correct in so far as the shooting at the Pike is concerned? I agree, Bob. Pike W isn't providing rear support and looks like fair game to me. |
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lee
Munifex
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Post by lee on Nov 20, 2019 15:17:40 GMT
Guys,
Can I make an observation. If you are wanting to shoot at an element that is not at least 1/2BW in view then this would not be legal.
The issue nowadays with base sizing is that Heavy troop types can be base on 20mm depth (15mm scale, 40mm frontage) or 30mm depth (28mm scale, 60mm frontage) which would be legal to shoot at but if they were alternately based on the older 15mm depths for 15mm scale or 20mm depths for 28mm scale then arguably not.
My preference nowadays is to opt for the larger base depth as indicated in DBA 3 anyway. But here's another thing but can you voluntarily double base in DBA 3 (MUST ADMIT NOT SCOURED THE RULES FOR THIS ONE)
Lee
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Post by lkmjbc on Nov 20, 2019 15:30:16 GMT
The rule actually is 1/2BW or entire edge. So, in 15mm scale and 15mm side edge is a legal target edge. It doesn't have to be 20mm if the entire edge is valid.
Joe Collins
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