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Post by bob on Nov 18, 2019 0:41:25 GMT
I am always going for the immediate win, and let good luck save me in future bounds. In any event I would have kept the Ax in the Bad Going and let the Wb come to me, with no second rank support (whatever that is). As it is the 3 Ax are tying up half the red army.
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Post by lkmjbc on Nov 18, 2019 1:02:01 GMT
Good thread here...a good question and Vic is the star for providing the diagram. To answer your last question...if you contact the enemy front edge with your front, then the slide should get you contact. If you are blocked by elements, then the enemy may conform or fight as overlapped. Joe Collins Right, but my question was, presuming no other blockage, if the 1BW distance required in order to comply with a legal contact is exceeded, then there can be no legal contact & therefore the move should be cancelled? Yes, the rules say "One party moves the minimum distance to so Conform. Contactors Conform using their Tactical Move; except that an extra slide sideways of up to 1BW is allowed if this is necessary to Conform after contacting an enemy front edge. Elements contacted this bound by enemy or whose front edge is still in contact when Combat ends automatically Conform if necessary" But they previously say "at least one element of a contacting Group MUST be lined-up with an enemy element... If this is not possible the move does NOT happen" So, if I have to slide by more than 1BW to make a legal contact, is the move cancelled? Regards, j & yeah, thanks for the diagram, Vic. I'd be grateful to know what you used to make it as anything I try to attach (photo or Excel) gets refused as too large a file to send. I am afraid that you have lost me again.
If you make front contact with the front of an enemy... then a 1 BW free slide will by definition move you into corner to corner contact (unless it is blocked etc...). Bases are 1 BW... so err...It can never take more than 1 BW to move into contact.
What am I missing?
Joe Collins
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Post by macbeth on Nov 18, 2019 4:02:41 GMT
Right, but my question was, presuming no other blockage, if the 1BW distance required in order to comply with a legal contact is exceeded, then there can be no legal contact & therefore the move should be cancelled? Yes, the rules say "One party moves the minimum distance to so Conform. Contactors Conform using their Tactical Move; except that an extra slide sideways of up to 1BW is allowed if this is necessary to Conform after contacting an enemy front edge. Elements contacted this bound by enemy or whose front edge is still in contact when Combat ends automatically Conform if necessary" But they previously say "at least one element of a contacting Group MUST be lined-up with an enemy element... If this is not possible the move does NOT happen" So, if I have to slide by more than 1BW to make a legal contact, is the move cancelled? Regards, j & yeah, thanks for the diagram, Vic. I'd be grateful to know what you used to make it as anything I try to attach (photo or Excel) gets refused as too large a file to send. I am afraid that you have lost me again.
If you make front contact with the front of an enemy... then a 1 BW free slide will by definition move you into corner to corner contact (unless it is blocked etc...). Bases are 1 BW... so err...It can never take more than 1 BW to move into contact.
What am I missing?
Joe Collins
I thought I would get out in front of this one back when DBA3 was just getting off the ground Joe.
There was an early debate about moving to just corner to corner contact and then getting the free slide.
Consider XXXXXXXXXXCv --> Line A PsXXXXXXXXXX --> Line B
XX represents a 1 element gap - therefore there is exactly 4BW from the front corner of Line A's Cv to Line B's Ps
Line A's player wants to move 4BW to end up in front corner to front corner contact with the Ps then use the free slide to move into contact.
I said that in my tournaments I would rule that as legal - I cited the "Within - Means At or Within" precedent - but was subsequently howled down. The issue
Consider WbKn --> line A BdKn --> line B
Line B moved into contact with line A and in the subsequent combat line B's Bd kills line A's Wb AND line A's Kn kills Line B's Kn
At the start of Line A's move the situation is XXKn --> line A BdXX --> line B
Where XX represents a 1 BW gap
Line A's player declares that since the Kn are in front edge contact with the Bd that they will use the free slide to line up with the Bd and so save their PIPs for other constructive moves.
Community concerns were that this was a breach of the spirit and I tend to agree. So the general consensus at the time was that there had to be more than just front corner to front corner contact, even if it were the proverbial "Frog's Hair" before the slide could be used.
I am not sure if the world has moved on since then.
Cheers
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Post by Vic on Nov 18, 2019 10:11:22 GMT
Perfectly! What are you using for the diagram? Regards, j
Inkscape (https://inkscape.org). It's a simple editor for vectorial graphics, so perfect for quickly drawing some simple shapes.
I then upload them to imgur (https://imgur.com/) and link them externally to avoid the problem with full forum storage.
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Post by medievalthomas on Nov 18, 2019 17:56:48 GMT
All Aux must be moved one by one and conform as individual elements (so must conform to Warband groups).
End Aux must be able to get into front edge contact (not just corner) to get free slide (there is no free pivot). As it does not have enough MA to do this it cannot contact the corner (but can still move just short).
If it could touch enemy front edge (even with just its front corner) it does trigger conforming rules and must then conform as much as possible (see Diagram 13) if it cannot fully conform then opponent must finish the conform if possible. Diagram 13 should be studied as it has lots of implicit if unstated rules re conforming. Remember Phil's maximum that you should always interpret the rules to bring about combat. (Effect of non-free pivot and whether elements must theoretically have enough MA to pivot into contact to trigger conforming not stated in Diagram 13 but for sanity's sake we don't worry about theoretical moves.)
Not sure we should have bothered with the fineky front corner exception but it seems how rules were intended (to extent anyone thought about this) to work. It does have the important consequence of corner to corner not triggering the free slide (which theoretically would be just a hair short of 1BW).
TomT
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Post by j on Nov 19, 2019 10:49:05 GMT
Slightly confused (again)
"End Aux must be able to get into front edge contact (not just corner) to get free slide (there is no free pivot). As it does not have enough MA to do this it cannot contact the corner (but can still move just short)"
So, you are saying it has to be front edge contact with at least part of an enemy front, flank or rear edge in order to be able to claim the 1BW slde to conform & that front or rear corner edges do not count as contact?
If this is the case, then does "If this [contact] is not possible the move does NOT happen" mean that the Ax can't make the move at all (seems odd) or, as you suggest, it can move to 1mm short of contact?
Regards,
j
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Post by stevie on Nov 19, 2019 11:17:23 GMT
You can only claim the free 1 BW sideways slide if your front-edge contacts the enemy front-edge.
If your front-edge contacts any other part of the enemy, then no freebie sideways slide I’m afraid.
And the rules are consistent...if you can’t conform to one of the four positions listed on page 9,
then THAT particular move into contact cannot happen.
Other moves, that don’t result in contact, are of course still possible.
(Basically, at the end of the movement phase, someone has to conform with their front-edge
in contact AND the front-corners touching each other, or the move ain’t legal)
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Post by medievalthomas on Nov 21, 2019 19:21:33 GMT
What Stevie said. The free slide is for FRONT edge to Front edge contact. There is no free slide for side or rear edge contact (probably should be for rear edge).
BUT conforming rules are triggered by ANY contact on an opponent's FRONT edge. If this occurs you must attempt to conform by pivoting/sliding if you can. If your attempt to conform is blocked BEFORE you exceed your MA then the opponent must attempt to conform.
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Post by zendor on Dec 11, 2019 22:58:20 GMT
Sorry, that I get into a conversation, but one situation came into my mind... Let's suppose all Aux are in Good Going and are 2 BW away from Wb. This fact allow them to move as one group. They move and make two front contancts with two Wb elements and one contact just with the corner.
So, what will be with this right (from a blue player's view) Wb collum? Do they have to conform and fight, or they'll stay as it is? Or something else? (It reminds me a Figure 13d, but I'm not sure...)
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Post by stevie on Dec 12, 2019 8:59:59 GMT
I think I can answer your question Zendor.Let’s list the salient points of your diagram:- 1) conforming troops must be in one of the four positions listed on page 9 at the end of the Move Phase, 2) a moving group must conform to a stationary group, if it can, 3) there is an unwritten hidden rule in DBA that means conforming never forces groups to split up. (Nowhere is this mentioned in the rules, but it is implied, or many of the diagrams would be different.
The only exception to this unwritten hidden rule is when forced to turn-to-face after the Move Phase)So then: the Aux group (which is in good going) contacts the Warbands and conforms as best it can. As the Aux group cannot conform as a group to the left-hand Wb column that is at a angle, the left-hand Wb column must do the conforming instead (as per the rule on page 9, third paragraph from the bottom of the page - “If conforming is prevented, the other party must do the conforming instead”). Thus all three Aux elements, in a single group, end up facing all three Wb columns, also in a single group. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by zendor on Dec 12, 2019 9:53:02 GMT
I think I can answer your question Zendor.Let’s list the salient points of your diagram:- 1) conforming troops must be in one of the four positions listed on page 9 at the end of the Move Phase, 2) a moving group must conform to a stationary group, if it can, 3) there is an unwritten hidden rule in DBA that means conforming never forces groups to split up. (Nowhere is this mentioned in the rules, but it is implied, or many of the diagrams would be different.
The only exception to this unwritten hidden rule is when forced to turn-to-face after the Move Phase)So then: the Aux group (which is in good going) contacts the Warbands and conforms as best it can. As the Aux group cannot conform as a group to the left-hand Wb column that is at a angle, the left-hand Wb column must do the conforming instead (as per the rule on page 9, third paragraph from the bottom of the page - “If conforming is prevented, the other party must do the conforming instead”). Thus all three Aux elements, in a single group, end up facing all three Wb columns, also in a single group. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_QuarterGreat, Stevie, thank you very much! I also create separate thread with similar situation, because it may be interesting to other players. If you could write your view there, I'll be very grateful to you! Here: fanaticus.boards.net/thread/2391/when-group-meets-groups |
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