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Post by paulisper on Sept 18, 2019 10:08:36 GMT
My feeling on this is that there should be two categories of Ps. The first is where it forms a significant portion of the army, as with a few of the Biblical armies, and are regarded as ‘fighting forces’. They should thus count as 1 element loss each when destroyed, as per the current rules. The second type is that whose primary role was as a skirmishing troop and is in most lists as one or two elements. This should considered dispensable and either costs 0, as with Hordes, or 0.5 element cost to victory conditions. These could be classed as Ps(S) and Ps(F) respectively under current nomenclature...
P
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Post by primuspilus on Sept 19, 2019 1:27:44 GMT
Then you thoroughly nerf the Ps-heavy army when fighting a "regular" army, no?
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Post by bob on Sept 19, 2019 3:07:29 GMT
I am happy with 4 element equivalents and not counting hordes lost to end. If I am down 4 I am not coming back, and it is just a waste of time to keep playing. Get on with the next game.
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Post by snowcat on Sept 19, 2019 5:34:28 GMT
I am happy with 4 element equivalents and not counting hordes lost to end. If I am down 4 I am not coming back, and it is just a waste of time to keep playing. Get on with the next game. So imagine you've lost 3 Ps and 1 LH. But all your Kn, Cv, Bd etc are intact and now in good position to crush the enemy, who has lost 3 of his better elements [e.g. Kn & Bd]. You're not coming back? A waste of time to keep playing? Really?
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 19, 2019 7:12:18 GMT
I am happy with 4 element equivalents and not counting hordes lost to end. If I am down 4 I am not coming back, and it is just a waste of time to keep playing. Get on with the next game. So imagine you've lost 3 Ps and 1 LH. But all your Kn, Cv, Bd etc are intact and now in good position to crush the enemy, who has lost 3 of his better elements [e.g. Kn & Bd]. You're not coming back? A waste of time to keep playing? Really? True but: You’ve got to draw the line somewhere and if 5 VPs to win someone would suggest the case that “imagine you've lost 3 Ps and 2 LH. But all your Kn, Cv, Bd etc are intact and now in good position to crush the enemy, who has lost 4 of his better elements. Ps and LH aren’t junk units. By definition they are important elements of your army that you do mind losing. Think of Alexander’s Agrarian Javelin-men, Cretan Archers or Prodromi. A fast unit that you don’t mind losing would be classified 5Hd......at least in theory......and I expect the Army lists are full of exceptions. Do you have an army list in mind where you could loose 3 Ps and 1 LH but retain your Kn, Cv, Bd. My observation is that Ps and LH mostly come in 1s and 2s or fully “Wimp Wars” quantities.....and if “Wimp Wars” then the loss of 4 elements would impact morale of the rest. Morale is a fickle thing. The situation you raise seems like one where the nobles on the losing side were not 100% committed to their leader and were looking for an excuse to stop fighting. So when their general squandered all their light units despite their best efforts in the main battle line then that was it. Next stop overthrow the leader! Can anyone identify a historical battle where one side lost “3 Ps and 1 LH, retained all your Kn, Cv, Bd” and still fled the field. STEVIE!
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Post by stevie on Sept 19, 2019 9:21:03 GMT
Ha! None specifically Paddy...but there are many historical battles that may ‘imply’ it. As I already mentioned, The Battle of the Hellespont in 321 BC:- Craterus with army II/12 (1 x 3Kn General, 1 x Cv, 1 x LH, 1 x 4Ax (peltasts, not Hypaspists), 6 x 4Pk, 1 x Sp/Ax, 1 x Ps). Eumenes with army II/14 (1 x 3Kn General, 1 x 3Kn, 1 x 3Kn/Cv, 2 x LH, 4 x 3Ax, 1 x Sp/Ps, 2 x Ps). Craterus loses all three mounted and the battle, even though the foot of both sides never even came into contact, showing that LH at least should count as 1 element if lost. And there are the Spanish Iberians, whom Duncan Head in his “Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars” says:- “...but in sharp contrast to the usual Graeco-Roman picture of ‘barbarians’ they did not despair if things went badly, but fought doggedly on.” Army II/39 (1 x Cv General, 1 x LH, 6 x 3/4Ax, 4 x Ps). They can’t really ‘fight doggedly on’ if they just lose their 4 x Ps can they they. Then there is the Battle of Cannae 216 BC (even if you attach the Roman General to a foot element):- Army II/33 (2 x Cv, 2 x Sp (Triarii), 4 x 4Bd, 2 x 4Bd/Ax, 2 x Ps Velites). Do we want this battle to be over when the Romans lose their 2 x Cv and their 2 x Ps before their Legionaries are drawn into Hannibal’s double envelopment trap? Last of all there are all the armies that end up losing just a single Ps element. Do we really want Alexander to lose a hard fought battle just because he has also lost a single element of skirmishers? It’s because of all the above that I think losing the first Ps shouldn’t count, but losing any more Ps should count. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by snowcat on Sept 19, 2019 11:59:00 GMT
I'd be happy with that. It seems the easiest 'fix' that doesn't appear to open a complete can of worms.
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 19, 2019 13:20:23 GMT
Would you extend that to the first unit of Ps OR LH? I’d suggest so.
An alternative route would be to increase the value of Ps and LH on the tabletop. 3.0 did much to increase the value of Psloi and a “first kill free” rule would do more. LH still feels under valued and one suggestion to increase their value and mobility may be +1 on the PIP dice for every 4 LH in the army.....and yes I do mean that if you have 12 LH (unlikely) you should have 4-10 PIPs and that 8-11 LH should get 3-9 PIPs. Let LH heavy Wimp Wars armies use the speed and flexibility of LH and gain some protection from rolling 1s.
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Post by stevie on Sept 19, 2019 14:06:02 GMT
Would you extend that to the first unit of Ps OR LH? I’d suggest so. Actually, I’d suggest not, and only have the loss of the first Ps not counting. Otherwise the Battle of the Hellespont would require the foot to be engaged, contrary to what actually happened in reality (i.e. if LH don’t count, then Craterus won’t be defeated by merely losing all of his 3 mounted and general). As for giving LH armies a bit of a PIP boost, how about this:- ---One group consisting entirely of LH can make one tactical move for no PIP’s.--- Armies with only a single LH couldn’t use this ‘free move’ (as not in a group of only LH), and having 2 or more LH groups won’t help either (only one group gets this ‘free move’). This would work better than adjusting the PIP roll, as it ensures any extra PIP is spent on the LH. For example, if you just add to the PIP roll then Numidian army II/40 (say 6 x LH, 5 x Ps, 1 x El) could spend any extra PIP’s on moving the elephant or Psiloi instead. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 19, 2019 18:19:47 GMT
Stevie,
Your point about the Battle of the Hellespont is fair.
Not sure I concur with your other point. If you give the first Ps a “free die” then LH armies become even more undervalued. In my ideal little world DBA would allow for a variety of elements, each with pros and cons that are on average all equally as beneficial to winning the game......the same way that “rock, paper, scissors” works. DBA 3.0 moves a long way towards this with its changes to Ps, Bow etc but, for me, doesn’t quite hit Nirvana with Ps and more especially LH which are IMHO undervalued.
Historically LH armies were the scourge of Empires. Attila, Ghengis and Timur the lame bear testament. But who in their right mind plays LH heavy armies in open competition?
Hence I argue that a PIP boost is a way of achieving this. Allowing one group consisting entirely of LH can make one tactical move for no PIP’s doesn’t quite do it for me. That benefit can he gained by an army with 2 x LH.....hardly LH heavy.
That said I understand your “effects” of trying to ensure that extra PIPs are spent on LH but I’m not sure I’m that bothered about it. Adding +1 PIP to the Numidian army II/40 (say 6 x LH, 5 x Ps, 1 x El) makes it a far more attractive proposition. Do so stick with my earlier suggestion. +1 PIP for every 4 LH in your army. I’d settle for rolling additional PIP die and selecting the higher but just give LH heavy armies more PIPs!
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Post by medievalthomas on Sept 19, 2019 18:37:45 GMT
We always play that you must have more elements on table than in the the "Dead Pile" or your army (or battle if playing big battle) is broken. Horde & Ps count as 1/2 an element for this purpose.
D3H2 sticks to the HOTT convention of 1/2 points killed which also works well.
In multi-player games with several Battles, we allow the broken battles to fight on with a -1 penalty in combat and the only group move allowed is a Hold (remain in place). Individual moves are OK and can be used to attempt to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Elements that are not held or given an individual PIP Rout (i.e. leave the table).
Playtested many times - it makes for an excellent afternoon of gaming.
It is a very rare real world battle where quarter losses (in game terms not dead body terms) would break an army particularly where they are often the least important troops in the army. So either of the above methods is a significant improvement.
Thomas J. Thomas Fame & Glory Games
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Post by bob on Sept 19, 2019 19:05:21 GMT
I am happy with 4 element equivalents and not counting hordes lost to end. If I am down 4 I am not coming back, and it is just a waste of time to keep playing. Get on with the next game. So imagine you've lost 3 Ps and 1 LH. But all your Kn, Cv, Bd etc are intact and now in good position to crush the enemy, who has lost 3 of his better elements [e.g. Kn & Bd]. You're not coming back? A waste of time to keep playing? Really? Really. Got to draw the line somewhere. Why not play until one side has lost all elements for strong closure?
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 19, 2019 21:19:32 GMT
The trouble is Bob that even with 12 elements dead a half decent Necromancer may turn things around.........but thankfully that is HOTT!
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Post by Les1964 on Sept 19, 2019 22:09:20 GMT
The trouble is Bob that even with 12 elements dead a half decent Necromancer may turn things around. There's still the 13th man in the camp .
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Post by nangwaya on Sept 20, 2019 0:16:28 GMT
Would you extend that to the first unit of Ps OR LH? I’d suggest so. An alternative route would be to increase the value of Ps and LH on the tabletop. 3.0 did much to increase the value of Psloi and a “first kill free” rule would do more. LH still feels under valued and one suggestion to increase their value and mobility may be +1 on the PIP dice for every 4 LH in the army.....and yes I do mean that if you have 12 LH (unlikely) you should have 4-10 PIPs and that 8-11 LH should get 3-9 PIPs. Let LH heavy Wimp Wars armies use the speed and flexibility of LH and gain some protection from rolling 1s. The I/43a Kimmerians can give you 12x LH.
You can also get 9x LH + 3x 7Hd or even 9x LH + 3x Ps, etc.
Would like to use your rule wrinkle out with this army.
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