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Post by bob on Sept 16, 2019 21:58:14 GMT
In a recent game a situation arose that caused confusion. The basic question is: Can an element move straight ahead into an enemy element's Threat Zone, but stop short of contact, and in contact corner to corner with another element? See diagram below. Or must the element entering the TZ continue forward into contact with enemy straight ahead, and then conform to it? Thanks. ![]()  |
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 16, 2019 22:11:43 GMT
Element A is advancing “towards the element” it is in the TZ of. So a legal move. Nothing says it has to move into contact.
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Post by stevie on Sept 16, 2019 23:23:00 GMT
This is an interesting one Bob, and I agree with Paddy. We can all read the “Threat Zone” rule on page 9, but I’ll take the liberty of repeating it here:- “Troops in a TZ can move only: (a) to line-up its front edge with one enemy generating the TZ, (b) to advance into or towards contact with such an enemy, (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear.” Note that neither (a) nor (b) above contains the word ‘ must’... ...if the word ‘ to’ were replaced with the word ‘ must’ then things would be different. So I’d say that your final position does not break any rules and is therefore legal. In fact, a strict reading seems to imply you can either do (a) and line-up, OR, do (b) and advance, but not both together...going by the way the TZ rule is written, i.e. (a) does not mention advancing, just lining-up, and (b) does not mention lining-up, only advancing. (At least, that’s how you could interpret it)Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by goragrad on Sept 17, 2019 3:08:27 GMT
That strict reading is a pretty RAW interpretation there stevie...
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Post by paddy649 on Sept 17, 2019 6:04:22 GMT
Woah! I always took this rule to mean that the element moving in a TZ always had to end up closer to the element generating the TZ but reading it as Stevie has broken it down it doesn’t say this.
If (a) applies then what stops an element that is at an angle to an element generating a TZ pivoting backwards to align with the TZ generating element rather than pivoting forwards? Pivoting backwards still meets the requirement to line up. In fact what stops that element (if the situation applies) pivoting backwards to line up but in doing so moving out of the TZ. All that is required is to line up - it doesn’t say anything about remaining in the TZ.
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Post by paulisper on Sept 17, 2019 6:07:34 GMT
Element A is advancing “towards the element” it is in the TZ of. So a legal move. Nothing says it has to move into contact. Yup, that’s the way I’ve always played and ruled it P |
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Post by Cromwell on Sept 17, 2019 7:03:04 GMT
Element A is advancing “towards the element” it is in the TZ of. So a legal move. Nothing says it has to move into contact. Yup, that’s the way I’ve always played and ruled it P And the same here as well! |
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Post by stevie on Sept 17, 2019 7:47:17 GMT
In fact, a strict reading seems to imply you can either do (a) and line-up, OR, do (b) and advance, but not both together...going by the way the TZ rule is written, i.e. (a) does not mention advancing, just lining-up, and (b) does not mention lining-up, only advancing. (At least, that’s how you could interpret it)That strict reading is a pretty RAW interpretation there stevie... It’s ok Goragrad...there is a get-out clause. Figure 7a says you can do a combination of (a) and (b)...even if TZ rule does not. (A good example of why players need both the written rules PLUS the diagrams in
order to fill in the practical details that the written rules often fail to cover)Figure 7a also gives a practical example of what ‘lining-up’ means Paddy. Warband-B may “slide sideways to line-up with Spear-Y” (in other words, get those front corners to match each other, as if they were
already in contact...see also Figure 11)So I agree with Paulisper and Cromwell... ...the page 9 TZ rule says: “(b) or to advance into or towards contact...” Thus you are given the choice; just move a bit closer or end up touching. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by Vic on Sept 17, 2019 9:49:13 GMT
I think it's perfectly legal.
It wouldn't be if the advancing element had to do any manoeuvre such as turning or sliding laterally, but if it's just moving straight ahead and it's moving towards the element generating the TZ (so that it would eventually contact it if it kept advancing), it's legal to stop at any point inside the TZ.
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Post by bob on Sept 19, 2019 2:59:27 GMT
Thanks all for good comments.
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Post by scottrussell on Sept 22, 2019 8:52:12 GMT
I think it's perfectly legal. It wouldn't be if the advancing element had to do any manoeuvre such as turning or sliding laterally, but if it's just moving straight ahead and it's moving towards the element generating the TZ (so that it would eventually contact it if it kept advancing), it's legal to stop at any point inside the TZ. Does it even say that? (i.e that it can't manoeuvre) In Bob's diagram element A seems to be almost but not quite in a position to form a side to side contact with B, but moves slightly to its left before moving directly forwards into the TZ to line up exactly and form a side to side contact. I have never seen anybody object to this. What if it were within the TZ of Y but in a position where a direct advance would leave a gap between it and element B? Can it still move diagonally forwards to make a group with B if when it does it is actually closer (in millimetres) to contact with Y at the end of the move than at the start? Is there anywhere in the rules where it says it has to move directly forwards towards contact? Is there anywhere where it says that the element has to be at least as close to lined up at the end of the move than at the start? I think it should, but Stevie's interpretation suggests not. Scott |
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Post by Vic on Sept 23, 2019 5:29:18 GMT
I think it's perfectly legal. It wouldn't be if the advancing element had to do any manoeuvre such as turning or sliding laterally, but if it's just moving straight ahead and it's moving towards the element generating the TZ (so that it would eventually contact it if it kept advancing), it's legal to stop at any point inside the TZ. Does it even say that? (i.e that it can't manoeuvre) I think so, yeah. In page 11, section Threat Zone, it says that "an element or group which is at least partly within or whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its far edge can move only: (a) to advance to line up its front edge with one such enemy generating the TZ, or (b) to advance into or towards contact with such an enemy or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move". Cases (a) and (c) clearly don't apply (the element is not lining up with the enemy generating the TZ, nor backing up). The question could be (b); is moving towards the enemy and then moving laterally "advance towards contact with [the enemy generating the TZ]"? I don't think the moving laterally bit can be justified as advancing towards contact. Yes, I don't think the restriction applies to the movement outside the TZ. If it's within the TZ, I think it's bound by the restrictions and can only advance towards contact (or line up or back up, as above). That's part, I think, of the pinning effects of the TZ. I think the restriction that applies is not whether it's closer to the element, but whether it's advancing (i.e. moving forward) towards it. For instance, I don't think a movement almost perpendicular to the front edge of the element generating the TZ, which crosses the TZ but ends up just a millimetre closer to the front edge, can be considered legal. I think there is; given the three movements allowed above, I think interpreting them to allow "advance into or towards contact" otherwise removes most of the restrictions that the TZ imposes. The restrictions don't mention that; lining up (completely) is allowed, and advancing into contact is allowed, but the comparative degree of being lined up isn't considered (just like there's no mention of distance to the element generating the TZ). |
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Post by goragrad on Sept 23, 2019 7:12:55 GMT
Good points Vic.
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Post by medievalthomas on Sept 23, 2019 21:27:20 GMT
The intent is that you end oup closer or more aligned with the TZing element. Its implied that more aligned infers by pivoting in place or moving slightly forward not by back wheeling. (The intent is that you can only back out by moving directly to your own rear).
That's the intend - no telling what we can all parse out of the actual wording. Use the diagrams for intent they really help. I may clear this up in D3H2.
TomT
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