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Post by macbeth on Aug 28, 2019 4:12:18 GMT
A little while ago a fellow Fanatici asked me the following question
Is it legal for a group to interpenetrate another group as a one PIP move
For example
Pre Move
CCC ---> 3 element of Cv
PPP ---> 3 elements of Ps
And to be clear the gap between the two is considerably shorter than the 4BW move of Cv (lets call it 2BW to be safe) AND there is sufficient space on the other side of the group of Ps for a Cv base to fit
After the Move
PPP CCC
On reading the interpenetration rules I see that the relevant sections refer to "An Element" NOT "An Element or Group of Elements" so I am inclined to believe that the move above cannot be accomplished as a group move - the Cv Player will need to spend 1 PIP per element he wishes to push through the Ps
Whilst it is generally frowned upon to make references to other rules sets when trying to determine an interpretation I feel that my junior years playing WRG6th and 7th back up my inclination. Bake in those days there were a number of Permitted interpenetrations and we all knew who could charge through a screen to make the surprise punch  . BUT what was less well understood and came as a shock to most of my opponents who tried this trick was that in all but ONE case of the permitted interpenetrations - both sides were disordered.
In effect if you meet the conditions for an interpenetration - well and good - but it will disrupt your formation (in this case being a group).
I am putting this out to the Fanaticiverse for discussion - because it is obvious that we all enjoy a debate such at this -
BUT
Unless I receive an authoritative rebuttal of my inclination - with the subsequent inclusion of this in the FAQ then that is the way I intend to rule at Landwaster and any of the subsequent tournaments where I am the organiser
Cheers |
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Post by bob on Aug 28, 2019 5:23:37 GMT
I lost the conclusion. Are you ruling that a group can interpenetrate a group, but after the interpenetration, neither combination of elements is a group?
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Post by gregorius on Aug 28, 2019 6:22:59 GMT
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Post by gregorius on Aug 28, 2019 6:27:06 GMT
Well that worked a treat! I'll try again.
Bob, i think this is what David is offering as a ruling:
"On reading the interpenetration rules I see that the relevant sections refer to "An Element" NOT "An Element or Group of Elements" so I am inclined to believe that the move above cannot be accomplished as a group move - the Cv Player will need to spend 1 PIP per element he wishes to push through the Ps."
Cheers,
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Post by chaotic on Aug 28, 2019 6:51:06 GMT
On reading the interpenetration rules I see that the relevant sections refer to "An Element" NOT "An Element or Group of Elements" so I am inclined to believe that the move above cannot be accomplished as a group move - the Cv Player will need to spend 1 PIP per element he wishes to push through the Ps. Thanks Macbeth, I concur ... particularly relevant due to the upcoming MOAB Wimp Wars tournament. |
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Post by macbeth on Aug 28, 2019 7:41:00 GMT
I lost the conclusion. Are you ruling that a group can interpenetrate a group, but after the interpenetration, neither combination of elements is a group? All I am saying is that interpenetrations are not a group move Bob
The Cv would be in a group formation at the start of their bound but to interpenetrate the Ps would have to move individually
At the end of that bound if they were in side edge and front corner contact then they would be treated as a group when their opponent's bound began.
This is in no way different to the same block of Cv trying to cross a gully - they start in line, move through the bad going one at a time and end lined up as if they were in a group.
Since movement is done block by block and the format is IgoUgo there will never be a case where it matters whether a block of elements is a group for all or part of that bound. By the time it comes around to matter it is a new bound and everything resets.
I did not consider whether the stationery Ps were or were not a group as that again shouldn't matter given the outcome of the move.
Cheers
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Post by macbeth on Aug 28, 2019 7:42:20 GMT
On reading the interpenetration rules I see that the relevant sections refer to "An Element" NOT "An Element or Group of Elements" so I am inclined to believe that the move above cannot be accomplished as a group move - the Cv Player will need to spend 1 PIP per element he wishes to push through the Ps. Thanks Macbeth, I concur ... particularly relevant due to the upcoming MOAB Wimp Wars tournament. Indeed, but you will have to check with Greg (as the supreme being for MOAB) whether he will follow my pronouncement or whether he is his own man
Cheers
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Post by gregorius on Aug 28, 2019 8:31:50 GMT
Thanks Macbeth, I concur ... particularly relevant due to the upcoming MOAB Wimp Wars tournament. Indeed, but you will have to check with Greg (as the supreme being for MOAB) whether he will follow my pronouncement or whether he is his own man
Cheers
I'm in full agreement David and Gary. Cheers, |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 28, 2019 13:51:38 GMT
We are on the opposite tack.
Even though this is a rare occurrence, I have always seen it ruled that they can group move through.
Not worth arguing about, just do it your own way in your own games/events.
I don't really care either way, just describing what I have seen.
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Post by stevie on Aug 28, 2019 15:26:50 GMT
I’m in two minds about this one. Like Tony my mob have up till now assumed that a group could interpenetrate for 1 PIP, although I don’t mind if the consensus is that each element has to pay individually. However, while this may be fine and reasonable for the normal 12 element-a-side game, it will cause problems in BBDBA, where there are three times as many elements present. While players can usually easily afford 2 PIPs to move a group of 2 elements through friends, they will be very unlikely in BBDBA to have 6 PIPs in a command to move 6 elements through. Of course, very few, if any, tournaments play BBDBA games. Still, it would be nice if both versions of DBA had the same rules. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by stevie on Aug 28, 2019 18:47:46 GMT
...and another thing to consider is that even in a 12 element-a-side game, it will reduce the
effectiveness of Psiloi from performing their historical role...that of forming a skirmish line
out in front of the main battleline.
We will be back to the old DBA 2.2 situation, where Psiloi end up lurking behind the lines...
...only this time it will be because of the excessive PIP costs to get them to move forwards.
(especially if your army has say 3 or more Psiloi in it).
We would have to deploy the Psiloi out in front right from the start...which then leaves them
vulnerable to mounted ‘crossover charges’ that the new longer DBA 3.0 movement allows.
So, all-in-all, I don’t think it’s a good idea.
I’d like to see Psiloi made more effective and more useful, not less.
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Post by bob on Aug 28, 2019 20:16:02 GMT
I lost the conclusion. Are you ruling that a group can interpenetrate a group, but after the interpenetration, neither combination of elements is a group? All I am saying is that interpenetrations are not a group move Bob
The Cv would be in a group formation at the start of their bound but to interpenetrate the Ps would have to move individually
At the end of that bound if they were in side edge and front corner contact then they would be treated as a group when their opponent's bound began.
This is in no way different to the same block of Cv trying to cross a gully - they start in line, move through the bad going one at a time and end lined up as if they were in a group.
Since movement is done block by block and the format is IgoUgo there will never be a case where it matters whether a block of elements is a group for all or part of that bound. By the time it comes around to matter it is a new bound and everything resets.
I did not consider whether the stationery Ps were or were not a group as that again shouldn't matter given the outcome of the move.
Cheers
Yes, I get that. Seems perfectly correct. This brings to mind a situation I have often wondered about. The Cv are a group behind the Psiloi, move through the Psiloi one at a time, say from left to right. As each Cv after the first moves through, it touches the previous mover, to form a group, until the last one comes through. Now the problem. The last mover aligns with the previous to continue the group AND touches part of a single enemy element. That enemy element is now "A single element contacted by a group . . . " Does it conform to the reformed group? |
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Post by lkmjbc on Aug 28, 2019 23:56:26 GMT
All I am saying is that interpenetrations are not a group move Bob
The Cv would be in a group formation at the start of their bound but to interpenetrate the Ps would have to move individually
At the end of that bound if they were in side edge and front corner contact then they would be treated as a group when their opponent's bound began.
This is in no way different to the same block of Cv trying to cross a gully - they start in line, move through the bad going one at a time and end lined up as if they were in a group.
Since movement is done block by block and the format is IgoUgo there will never be a case where it matters whether a block of elements is a group for all or part of that bound. By the time it comes around to matter it is a new bound and everything resets.
I did not consider whether the stationery Ps were or were not a group as that again shouldn't matter given the outcome of the move.
Cheers
Yes, I get that. Seems perfectly correct. This brings to mind a situation I have often wondered about. The Cv are a group behind the Psiloi, move through the Psiloi one at a time, say from left to right. As each Cv after the first moves through, it touches the previous mover, to form a group, until the last one comes through. Now the problem. The last mover aligns with the previous to continue the group AND touches part of a single enemy element. That enemy element is now "A single element contacted by a group . . . " Does it conform to the reformed group? The answer is........ Maybe.. It has nothing to do with groups though. If the last moving element makes frontal contact...it must conform as it is not part of a group but is contacting an enemy element. If blocked by another element, the enemy element is forced to either...conform...or fight as if overlapped. Joe Collins |
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Post by macbeth on Aug 29, 2019 2:32:18 GMT
Yes, I get that. Seems perfectly correct. This brings to mind a situation I have often wondered about. The Cv are a group behind the Psiloi, move through the Psiloi one at a time, say from left to right. As each Cv after the first moves through, it touches the previous mover, to form a group, until the last one comes through. Now the problem. The last mover aligns with the previous to continue the group AND touches part of a single enemy element. That enemy element is now "A single element contacted by a group . . . " Does it conform to the reformed group? The answer is........ Maybe.. It has nothing to do with groups though. If the last moving element makes frontal contact...it must conform as it is not part of a group but is contacting an enemy element. If blocked by another element, the enemy element is forced to either...conform...or fight as if overlapped. Joe Collins And those were my thoughts too - if I were the player I would move the element most likely to make contact first so as to avoid such confusion.
cheers
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. BUT what was less well understood and came as a shock to most of my opponents who tried this trick was that in all but ONE case of the permitted interpenetrations - both sides were disordered. 
