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Post by j on Aug 18, 2019 23:53:38 GMT
I have to confess that I am totally bamboozled by the x-ray TZ threads & my mind is ready to explode.
Can I ask a simple question?
I have a supported group of Wb in good going that wants to enter bad going where they can't claim support.
I want to deploy my second rank out to a flank in order to attempt to outflank the enemy on a later bound.
However, there is an enemy element to the front of the leading element of Wb whose TZ extends beyond that front rank Wb & encompasses the rear rank (actually, it is exactly 1BW from the rear rank which, I believe, renders it within the x-ray TZ of the enemy element, right?)
Can I deploy the rear rank or is it restricted by the x-ray TZ & only capable of moving forward (with the front rank), standing still or falling directly back until out of the x-ray TZ?
Please donate generously to my mental well-being...
Regards,
j
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Post by goragrad on Aug 19, 2019 1:54:06 GMT
Correct as to the 1 BW putting the following element in the TZ. And therefore you are restricted to your stated options - following, standing still, or moving directly away.
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Post by lkmjbc on Aug 19, 2019 2:19:23 GMT
As the rules state, you are restricted by the threat zone.
Joe Collins
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 19, 2019 16:29:15 GMT
At first X-ray TZ doesn't seem to make sense, until you play several games and then realize what it may be trying to simulate.
Possibly it is is the close proximity of the enemy forces which cause your units not to not follow or create so much worry to your orders that they are out of your control.
There are many instances of those things which are out of your control in DBA (PIP rolls, inability to move those units which are out of command/use several pips to move/having to shoot at targets in TZ/impetuous elements) and I find that they make for a more fun game full of challenges for both players.
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Post by bob on Aug 20, 2019 5:03:33 GMT
The expression “x-ray threat zone”. Is one of those terms that players use to help explain certain phenomena. In previous versions of DBA, There was no term for the area one base width square in front of an element. Enemy elements had restrictions when operating in that area. People then use the term zone of control, which is derived from board games: ZOC. The rule at that time was very difficult to implement. What elements were in it, what elements were covered while in it, what elements could do in it. For example, is an element behind another element in the zone restricted or not.
One of the major tasks of DBA 3 was to clarify this tangled concept. Phil decided to cut down on the complications in the area by saying any elements in that area is restricted, and no element could claim cover from an element in front of it while in that area. Thus the new “threat zone” Came into being. Any element in the threat
zone Is restricted and cannot claim that an element in front of it protects it from the restriction of the zone. So, an element projects it’s threat zone through any element in front of it, so an x-ray zone.
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Post by Baldie on Aug 20, 2019 7:09:50 GMT
I keep thinking of this situation.
Three aux in a column fighting a unit of say spears.
The rear unit of the three aux, presuming they are on 20mm bases, is not in theat zone of Spear.
Two units of aux in column fighting say spear, aux pushed back. Rear aux now in same position as was the rear of the column of three but is in threat zone.
I accept it is but still cant get my heed round it
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Post by stevie on Aug 20, 2019 9:54:30 GMT
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Post by j on Aug 20, 2019 13:41:31 GMT
I keep thinking of this situation. Three aux in a column fighting a unit of say spears. The rear unit of the three aux, presuming they are on 20mm bases, is not in theat zone of Spear. Two units of aux in column fighting say spear, aux pushed back. Rear aux now in same position as was the rear of the column of three but is in threat zone. I accept it is but still cant get my heed round it Just when I thought I was starting to grasp X-Ray TZs & accept them, I look at your example & wonder if I have misunderstood once again. As I understood the previous comments, any element within (including being touched by the far end of) a TZ (which is 40mm for my 15mm figures) is restricted by the TZ. Thus, the 2nd Ax element is within the TZ but so is the 3rd as Ax are on 20mm bases therefore the 3rd element is exactly 40mm from the Sp so must be in its TZ too. If the column of Ax recoils, the first 2 elements will still be in the TZ of the Sp but the 3rd will then be 60mm away so definitely out of the TZ, right? Or have I got it wrong again? Regards j |
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Post by Baldie on Aug 20, 2019 13:46:21 GMT
If the aux are on 20mm then the third must be just over 40mm so out in my universe.
The two recoil max of 20mm so can't be more than 40mm away.
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Post by Baldie on Aug 20, 2019 13:48:19 GMT
Other people's universes may vary
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Post by j on Aug 20, 2019 13:52:36 GMT
If the aux are on 20mm then the third must be just over 40mm so out in my universe. The two recoil max of 20mm so can't be more than 40mm away. As I understand it, the Sp are in contact with the 1st Ax which has a depth of 20mm as does the 2nd 20mm plus 20mm equals 40mm so the far end of the Sp TZ (40mm) is definitely touching the 3rd Ax so it must be in the TZ Right? Regards, j |
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Post by j on Aug 20, 2019 13:55:47 GMT
Other people's universes may vary Unfortunately, I am desperately trying to understand PB's universe  j |
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Post by Baldie on Aug 20, 2019 13:57:18 GMT
20 plus 20 is 40 so for me anything else must be 40+
I am but a simple man with limited grasp of reality of course
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Post by j on Aug 20, 2019 15:56:10 GMT
20 plus 20 is 40 so for me anything else must be 40+ I am but a simple man with limited grasp of reality of course Sorry to be so pedantic but this is the very point I have been trying to understand. Maybe I am not expressing myself clearly or not understanding the answers (possibly both - I have form) The 3rd Ax is EXACTLY 40mm away from (not less than nor more than 40mm) the Sp in contact with the 1st Ax. That's just maths. My question originally was about what constituted "within" 1BW (40mm) & would therefore be affected by a TZ As far as I can tell, any enemy element that is even partially touched by the TZ of 40mm - which I understand includes being physically touched/contacted by the far edge of the Barker Marker (but not the sides or only the corners, which I believe was also the case in 2.0) - IS affected by the TZ Therefore an element EXACTLY 40mm away IS affected (& 20 + 20 = exactly 40) whereas an element 41mm away is not so the 3rd Ax must be regarded as being "within" the TZ. This should easy enough to see on the table - it either touches or doesn't. Granted, if the column is recoiled by the Sp, then while the 2nd Ax remains TZd (now EXACTLY 40mm away) the 3rd (now 60mm away) is free to move without restrictions. What I want to know is: What is the official position here? Does being contacted by the far end of TZ restrict in the same way as being physically "within" the TZ or not. I'll go with the flow  Regards, j |
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Post by lkmjbc on Aug 20, 2019 16:36:13 GMT
There are several issues involved here... First... A column of three Aux that is recoiled is in trouble. "From Recoiling or Being Pushed Back" "Pushed back elements cannot interpenetrate or push back others." The third element cannot be pushed back. Second... Threat Zone... Phil defines "Within" thusly... “Within” means “at or closer than”. So, two Auxilia in a column in close combat to the front are in the threat zone. Further, a 3rd Auxilia in a column is exactly 40mm away. It is "within" the threat zone. Phil, in order to reinforce this point included the phrase, "or touches its far edge". It is touching the front edge of the threat zone.
So, the third element is restricted by the threat zone. I hope this clears up the confusion. There are issues with the wording of the Threat Zone section of the rules that need to be addressed. This however isn't one of them. Joe Collins I hope this clears things up. |
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