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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 25, 2022 14:15:10 GMT
O.k., this campaign is long gone by now, but the problem remains: those DBA 3.0 vikings are always too strong! The main reason why the normans lost the historical battle at Stamford bridge is: they had been marching for so long and were utterly tired. Therefore in the scenario gameplay we might at least try to even things up by modifying their PIP rolls (-1) or even by altering their combat factors in the same way. I think that you might be confusing your battles. Stamford Bridge was fought between the Vikings of Harold Haradda and the Anglo-Saxons of Harold Godwinson with an Anglo-Saxons victory despite the long march to York. Cheers,
And I had forgotten some important details of this famous battle in which the viking army became so disastrously defeated, that its outcome marks the end of the viking era.
According to different sources the one part of Hardrada's army was completely caught by surprise. In order to form their shield wall just in time they had to leave most of their armament behind.
The other part of the norwegian army was lead by Eystein Orre, who arrived much later after a heavy march from Ricall, and whose men were so tired, that some of them simply collapsed when they reached the battlefield.
Therefore I'd suggest to simulate these problems in a historical scenario by modifying their PIPs by ‐1 and their CF even by ‐2. And Orre's elements should be treated as always in BG (even in GG).
Cheers! |
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Post by timurilank on Jul 25, 2022 17:46:54 GMT
Brian BoruSome interesting ideas. Looking at the Stamford Bridge scenario provided by your link, possibly requiring an extra pip to move, like horde, may be enough to simulate fatigue for Orre’s contingent. Decreasing their combat factor would negate the “Orre’s Storm” as mentioned in one source. web.archive.org/web/20140413215816/http://www.stamford-bridge.dk/paper/The scenario also omits the heroic defence at the bridge by the Norwegian rearguard.
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 26, 2022 9:39:42 GMT
The scenario also omits the heroic defence at the bridge by the Norwegian rearguard. That's right. But how could this be done? And should this be done at all? This single berserk helped Hardrada to gain the necessary time to assemble his troops and to form the shield wall, so (in game terms) this action took place before the proper deployment of both armies and thus should be omitted – though it might be fun. But this problem leads me to thinking about some house rules for a new kind of deployment that establish a kind of fog of war. (Hm, I'll test my ideas and report.) |
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Post by timurilank on Jul 26, 2022 11:45:06 GMT
Ah, the fun stuff. You need only deploy seven elements as four elements are off board with the ships. I would suggest the following: Vikings are defending, placing seven elements in camp (baseline) leaving number eight, the lone berserker (3Wb) to hold the bridge. Anglo-Saxons are deployed on the opposite bank, so must destroy or push back the berserker to allow the army to cross. Options: To leave camp, Vikings move as single elements to form their battle line. (This simulates the scattered detachments) First combat, on the bridge, is between Saxon spear and the berserker. This will intensify the combat as spear do not pursue, in which case the heroic berserker could re-join his companions. Destroying the spear will bring the berserker into contact with his next trophy.  |
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 26, 2022 12:17:31 GMT
Very nice! We'll try. And what about the spearman, that killed the berserk by stabbing him from under the bridge? But that might take simulation too far.  "Ah, the fun stuff." (It's all about fun, isn't it?) |
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Post by timurilank on Jul 26, 2022 13:03:27 GMT
Very nice! We'll try. And what about the spearman, that killed the berserk by stabbing him from under the bridge? But that might take simulation too far. "Ah, the fun stuff." (It's all about fun, isn't it?) That is included in a ‘twice as many” result, free of charge.  |
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 26, 2022 15:45:01 GMT
One last question:
When will Orre appear on the scene? On a viking PIP throw of 6?
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Post by timurilank on Jul 27, 2022 9:30:32 GMT
One last question: When will Orre appear on the scene? On a viking PIP throw of 6?
That is an option. The scenario displays Orre’s group are already on the board. However, having them enter on the road from Ricall would correspond to history as we know it. When to bring them on is another question. Games usually take 4-5 turns to reach a decision, entering the board on turn 3 would seem about right. |
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 27, 2022 12:41:03 GMT
And what about the spearman, that killed the berserk by stabbing him from under the bridge? That is included in a ‘twice as many” result, free of charge. I think the spearman or warband if killed should not count on victory condition. |
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Post by timurilank on Jul 27, 2022 15:02:17 GMT
That is included in a ‘twice as many” result, free of charge. I think the spearman or warband if killed should not count on victory condition. That would make them unworthy to enter the halls of Valhalla or sing with the angels in heaven. |
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Post by Brian Ború on Jul 27, 2022 16:07:15 GMT
I don't think so. Isn't it a reward in itself? |
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Post by carll on Aug 17, 2022 23:22:03 GMT
Great commentary guys.. especially Cromwell's quips on cameras etc...
By chance I had my first DBA game in a very long while, recently, and it was a big battle DBA refight of Brunaburgh. The umpire created an inferior Sp for lower class / lesser armoured general fyrd types; I was the Saxon with mainly Sp, (many of this inferior type) and a few Horde and a few Bd (of the solid type); versus mix of mainly Wb, Pk (the Picti types) - (mostly the fast types so more likely to be pushed back than my inferior solid Sp!!) and Bd and a few LH / Cv.
My initially holding a crest line helped me absorb initial onslaught; and generally being luckier with dice (eg getting extra pip to avoid being doubled when being attacked or getting extra pip when making own attacks to create doubling scores).
From Umpire / game creator's comments, he mostly followed "Great Battles of History for DBA3" general editor Joe Collins, and chapter therein by Joe Collins entitled Brunanburh 937AD, pp94-99; bar some rule extras noted above.
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Post by martin on Aug 18, 2022 7:17:18 GMT
> > The umpire created an inferior Sp for lower class / lesser armoured general fyrd types; I was the Saxon with mainly Sp, (many of this inferior type)……. Carl, can you recall the rules tweak the umpire applied to the ‘lesser mortals’ of the Saxon fyrd, please? |
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Post by carll on Aug 18, 2022 22:30:04 GMT
I will go dig it out, he kindly gave me a copy (which I only found I had among other items he kindly shared, yesterday).
Of course its his work so I will have to honour him with his name!!
Get back to you tomorrow. (I have to dig out of my games cave!!)
CarlL
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Post by carll on Aug 19, 2022 18:59:56 GMT
Martin,
This is a summary of the tweak created by Paul Stein, who imported following, for reasons he put as "Particular DBA armies are weakened by the singular nature of certain troop types. In particular, the difference between Saxon Select Fyrd and Fyrd (both spear) or the Viking Huscarl and Hird (both solid blade)" So Paul borrowed the idea of "inferior" from DBM (also used in DBMM) as follows:
Viking Hird / Bondi become Blade Inferior.
Saxon Fyrd become Spear Inferior.
This would only impact combat outcomes where:
If combat scores are equal then solid inferior troops recoil in combat against non inferior solid opponents. (There is no combat modifier used.)
and
If combat scores are equal then Fast inferior will recoil in combat against non inferior Fast opponents. (Again no combat modifiers involved.)
Paul saw the benefit as "The consequence will be to reduce the resilience and resisting ability of the (i) grade [inferior] troops without having to interfere with the performance of the better troops in the same type." [ie Select Fyrd spears or Viking Huscarls]
Paul has other adaptations which I wont bring in here as in our refight of Brunaburgh, this simple change saw the Saxon Fyrd pushed back more readily and the Irish Norse Hird / Bondi also pushed back more readily. But as I played the Saxon commander I may be giving a one sided view of the outcome of this rule change.
Try it out and see what you think. Our game was a Big Battle DBA format.
CarlL
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