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Post by sheffmark on Aug 15, 2019 12:30:06 GMT
Quick query:
When do you place the figures you wish to occupy your camp, (assuming you want to)?
The rules say "At the start of the game a camp can be occupied by either a) 1 only non-allied troop element (except Elephants or Scythed Chariots), ..... , or b) camp followers .........
Placing the camp is the first thing you do after placing terrain and deciding sides, so is this "the start of the game" when you decide who if anyone is going in your camp?
or
do you place camp followers with the camp or if you're placing a troop element, you put this in when you deploy your troops?
or
do you place camp followers or a troop element when you deploy your troops?
My own take on this, for what it's worth, is that as the rules state you have the option to occupy your camp at the start of the game and as placing the camp is the first thing you do I presume you have to occupy it at that point?
What do others think?
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Post by nangwaya on Aug 15, 2019 13:13:26 GMT
I have never placed an element of my army in a camp, but if I was going to do it, I would do it during army placement and not at the time I put down my camp.
Quite a few of my camps have camp followers permanently attached to them.
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Post by stevie on Aug 15, 2019 13:41:14 GMT
For this one we are supposed to go by what the rules say. Camp guards, page 7, paragraph 9:- “At the start of the game a camp can be occupied by either (a) 1 only non-allied troop element (except Elephants or Scythed chariots), which can subsequently vacate it and may be replaced by another such element, or (b) camp followers (represented by either a camp follower element that can move out of it but without being able to return, or fixed figures that cannot move out of it, but not both). If neither has been provided, it has been left undefended.” Deploying, page 8 paragraph 2:- “Next both sides place their camps, the defender first. Then the defender deploys its troop elements, one of which (if eligible) may be used to garrison a city or fort. Then the invader deploys its elements.” From the above we see that during camp deployment they should be placed along with their camp guards, and it is only during troop deployment that city and fort garrisons are placed. However, if my opponent during troop deployment wanted to occupy their camp with something other than camp followers (so as not the give their intentions away), I’d have no objections...but the camp followers will have to be permanently removed as camps, unlike cities, can only have one thing inside them. Note also that page 7 paragraph 7 says that camps can only be placed in your deployment area, as defined by figure 1a on page 15 (the ‘hatched’ zone is outside of your deployment area):- “It must be in GOOD GOING (except Plough) on the rear edge of its side’s deployment area, or on a waterway or beach (that is in that area – see the FAQ)” Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by nangwaya on Aug 15, 2019 14:56:37 GMT
Glad you brought this up sheffmark, because I had no idea that an element should be placed (if one wants to), at the time of camp placement.
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Post by vtsaogames on Aug 15, 2019 16:34:09 GMT
When playing a foot army vs. a mostly or all cavalry foe, I tend to want a bow or spear unit in the camp. I have also gone down to serious defeats doing this but I never learn.
Our crew has always placed any garrison in the camp at deployment time. But then we don't read the rules with a fine tooth comb.
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Post by stevie on Aug 15, 2019 17:09:33 GMT
Oh...one more thing for Nangwaya about his permanently fixed camp followers. Most players ignore the “either a camp follower element that can move out of it but without being able to return, or fixed figures that cannot move out of it, but not both.” In some armies, camp followers also includes their women and children, as well as wounded and recovering soldiers...and I refuse to believe that everybody would abandon the camp carrying their wounded with them on stretchers as they sally forth to fight the enemy! Therefore many of us think that it’s perfectly ok to have both decorative figures and mobile civilians in a camp. Just remember that if the mobile fit male civilians do leave the camp, then the skeleton crew left behind (i.e. the women, children, and wounded) are not able to defend the place adequately on their own, so it counts as being ‘undefended’. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by Simon on Aug 15, 2019 17:45:05 GMT
For this one we are supposed to go by what the rules say. Camp guards, page 7, paragraph 9:- “At the start of the game a camp can be occupied by either (a) 1 only non-allied troop element Note also that page 7 paragraph 7 says that camps can only be placed in your deployment area, as defined by figure 1a on page 15 (the ‘hatched’ zone is outside of your deployment area):- “It must be in GOOD GOING (except Plough) on the rear edge of its side’s deployment area, or on a waterway or beach (that is in that area – see the FAQ)” Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
Hi Stevie, It was good to meet you at Britcon on Saturday. After therapy, I am now successfully recovering from the emotional trauma of being faced by one of your infamous T-shirts! As you know, I am not persuaded by your interpretation of "the" deployment area. The second paragraph on page 8 does not refer to a "deployment area" at all - it just specifies the different distances that two groups of different troop types can deploy from the side edges (and the centre line) - two deployment areas? Figure 1a is also open to different interpretations. Although the words "Deployment area" are bounded by the unhatched area , they are area also bounded by the hatched area and the words "Deployment area" are aligned centrally to both. There are no lines with arrows to limit the extent of the deployment area but these are included elsewhere in figure 1a. I am not saying you are wrong and what you are saying may indeed have been intended by the author of the diagram - I am just saying that there is an equally logical alternative interpretation. Cheers Simon |
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Post by stevie on Aug 15, 2019 19:02:03 GMT
So more evidence is required. Very well then, here it is. Page 8, paragraph 2 gives a list of those that can be deployed in the ‘hatched’ zone:- “Cavalry, Light Horse, Camelry, Mounted infantry and Auxilia or Psiloi must deploy at least 2 BW away from battlefield side edges and others at least 4 BW away.” I don’t see the words “Camp” or “Camp followers” in that list, just as I don’t see the words “Pikes”, “Blades”, “War Wagons” or “Artillery” either. But I do see the words “...and others at least 4 BW away...”  Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by menacussecundus on Aug 15, 2019 20:56:51 GMT
For this one we are supposed to go by what the rules say. ................. Note also that page 7 paragraph 7 says that camps can only be placed in your deployment area, as defined by figure 1a on page 15 (the ‘hatched’ zone is outside of your deployment area):- “It must be in GOOD GOING (except Plough) on the rear edge of its side’s deployment area, or on a waterway or beach (that is in that area – see the FAQ)” Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
You and I have disagreed on this point before, stevie. If the hatched area isn't part of the deployment area, then how can one deploy troops in it? The fact that the hatched area isn't labeled as deployment area in fig 1a may have as much to do with font size and legibility as anything else. |
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Post by stevie on Aug 15, 2019 21:50:00 GMT
I can only refer you to my previous post.
IF the ‘hatched’ zone, 2 BW from the table side edges, were part of the normal deployment area,
as opposed to being a special zone outside of the normal deployment area that only certain special
troops can be deployed in, then why doesn’t the list on page 8 paragraph 2 include Camps and their
Camp Followers?
“Pikes” are not on that list.....because they are not allowed in this special ‘hatched’ zone.
“Blades” are not on that list...because they are not allowed in this special ‘hatched’ zone.
And “Camps” or “Camp Followers” are not on that list...implying that they too are not allowed in it either.
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Post by menacussecundus on Aug 16, 2019 7:31:37 GMT
I can only refer you to my previous post. IF the ‘hatched’ zone, 2 BW from the table side edges, were part of the normal deployment area, as opposed to being a special zone outside of the normal deployment area that only certain special troops can be deployed in, then why doesn’t the list on page 8 paragraph 2 include Camps and their Camp Followers? “Pikes” are not on that list.....because they are not allowed in this special ‘hatched’ zone. “Blades” are not on that list...because they are not allowed in this special ‘hatched’ zone. And “Camps” or “Camp Followers” are not on that list...implying that they too are not allowed in it either. Or that "camps" are not a troop type and so not covered by this list. The camp has already been placed at this point and, before you ask, the camp followers have been placed in it. |
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Post by stevie on Aug 16, 2019 8:07:43 GMT
A fair point. Very well then...let’s include the ‘hatched’ zone as being part of the ‘deployment area’... ...even though figure 1a shows differently, and the list on page 8 paragraph 2 specifically states the 6 items that can be placed in this ‘hatched’ zone, and camps are not one of them. I can live with that...after all, the rules fail to make entire clear what exactly the ‘Deployment Area’ actually is. Perhaps the fault lies with me for taking the rules toooo literally, and trying to follow them ‘word-for-word’, as printed. (It all comes from my experience of trying to get into celebrity parties...
...the bouncers frequently tell me “If you ain’t on the list, then you ain’t coming in!”)
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Post by j on Aug 16, 2019 8:33:43 GMT
A fair point. Very well then...let’s include the ‘hatched’ zone as being part of the ‘deployment area’... ...even though figure 1a shows differently, and the list on page 8 paragraph 2 specifically states the 6 items that can be placed in this ‘hatched’ zone, and camps are not one of them. I can live with that...after all, the rules fail to make entire clear what exactly the ‘Deployment Area’ actually is. Perhaps the fault lies with me for taking the rules toooo literally, and trying to follow them ‘word-for-word’, as printed. (It all comes from my experience of trying to get into celebrity parties...
...the bouncers frequently tell me “If you ain’t on the list, then you ain’t coming in!”)
There's also the last para in fig 1a "Note that these restrictions do not apply to garrisons of cities & forts, or those elements making a littoral landing" Surely if PB had intended camps to be exempt from the restrictions, they would be included here? Just a thought... Regards, j |
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Post by martin on Aug 16, 2019 8:39:20 GMT
A fair point. Very well then...let’s include the ‘hatched’ zone as being part of the ‘deployment area’... ...even though figure 1a shows differently, and the list on page 8 paragraph 2 specifically states the 6 items that can be placed in this ‘hatched’ zone, and camps are not one of them. I can live with that...after all, the rules fail to make entire clear what exactly the ‘Deployment Area’ actually is. Perhaps the fault lies with me for taking the rules toooo literally, and trying to follow them ‘word-for-word’, as printed. (It all comes from my experience of trying to get into celebrity parties...
...the bouncers frequently tell me “If you ain’t on the list, then you ain’t coming in!”)
There's also the last para in fig 1a "Note that these restrictions do not apply to garrisons of cities & forts, or those elements making a littoral landing" Surely if PB had intended camps to be exempt from the restrictions, they would be included here? Just a thought... Regards, j That’s cos a fort/city garrison can be all the way out on a far flank, outside of the deployment area, and even further than the camp may be placed. |
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Post by j on Aug 16, 2019 9:41:41 GMT
I know that  But my point still stands - if PB wanted to exempt camps & their occupiers from the restrictions, that would've been a good place for it. Regards, j |
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