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Post by stevie on Jun 25, 2019 9:39:12 GMT
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Post by vtsaogames on Jun 28, 2019 22:20:19 GMT
Thank you. Our group (The Corlears Hook Fencibles) have loads of 15mm DBA armies. We've just been deep into black powder period grand-tactical rules via Bloody Big Battles and lately skirmishes via Rebels & Patriots. But a museum exhibition about the land between the Roman and Parthian empires got my interst up. It may be time to revisit DBA.
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Post by sonic on Jun 29, 2019 7:50:10 GMT
Odd. I just have 6 Uighur cavalry to paint and I have finally finished my Mongols - after over 20 years!
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Post by skb777 on Jan 20, 2023 14:23:27 GMT
As if the Romans aren't hard done by enough in DBA we are now going to make there opponents even better. That is also a 'literal' translation of Polybius as he didn't mean they had been re-armed with Pila and trained to fight as imitation legionaries, more they took the armour etc as it was superior to their own, more than the weaponry.
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Post by stevie on Jan 20, 2023 17:23:32 GMT
Well, to quote myself from the very first post of this thread:- “Hannibal’s Libyans should be Bd, not Sp, partly because they used captured Roman equipment, but mainly because they were veterans...and veteran spears would be better than ordinary spears. Does it not say at the top of page 3 “Troops are defined by battlefield behaviour”? Well, was their behaviour at Cannae that of passive spearmen huddling in a defensive shield wall? Or did Hannibal use them aggressively to attack?”“But Stevie, they carried spears, so they must be spearmen!” Very well…then why are the Vikings classed as Blades? They were armed with spears as well. In DBA, it their behaviour that matters, not what they carry in their right hands. In addition, here is something else from another one of my posts:- Hannibal in Italy: give the Carthaginians a lower aggression of 2, so Hannibal chooses the terrain. After all, it was Hannibal, not the Romans, that chose the battlefields at Trebia, Lake Trasimene, and Cannae. “But” I hear you say, “the battles were fought in Italy!”. My answer to that is so what? Both will be Arable. Hannibal should be Arable (no fleet), so does it matter where the battles are being fought? As wargamers what is important to us is who gets to place the terrain, not which country we are in. And with the nightfall time limit, it’ll be the Romans, being the attackers, making the rash advances, just as they did at the River Trebia, at Lake Trasimene, and at Cannae, or Hannibal will be the victors. (See static.wikia.nocookie.net/fanaticus-dba/images/4/41/TIME_OF_DAY_DISPLAY.pdf/revision/latest?cb=20170212182516&format=original )
Actually, the Later Carthaginians are a little bit more complex:- 1st Punic War: Carthage had a mighty fleet, so should be Littoral. But they weren’t the invaders. Carthage had been in Sicily for centuries fighting the Greeks of Syracuse. It was the Romans who were the invaders, entering a region they had never been in before. So Carthage should be Littoral with an aggression of 2. 2nd Punic War: Carthage had lost their fleet in the First Punic War, and had been in Spain for decades. It was the Romans who were the invaders, entering a region they had never been in before. So Carthage should be Arable with an aggression of 2. As for Hannibal in Italy, see my comments above. 3rd Punic War: Rome were definitely the invaders, so again Carthage should be Arable with an aggression of 1. Yep…any way you look at it, the DBA Later Carthaginian army is totally wrong in every possible way.
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Post by skb777 on Jan 20, 2023 20:21:55 GMT
it isn't only the Carthaginians it has wrong though, so they are in good company. Veterans should be classed as Superior, but DBA doesn't have this. You probably need to get into DBMM terrain for more historic accuracy. How would you class Caesar's Elite Legio X? They are already blade, The Argyraspids, they are pike do they also become blade?
If you are a romantic, like me, and want to try try your hand at being an Alexander, Caesar, Hannibal et al DBA doesn't do that.
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Post by Haardrada on Jan 20, 2023 23:13:44 GMT
Tony - my Mongols have lain unpainted for 20+ years. They need an excuse to get painted! Does everybody have a group of unpainted mongols? I bought some old glory 28mm mongols fantasizing that I would play a skirmish yurt raid with them... haven’t touched them in 3 moves! I went further with mine...they joined my Timurids.😁
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Post by lkmjbc on Jan 21, 2023 1:19:53 GMT
it isn't only the Carthaginians it has wrong though, so they are in good company. Veterans should be classed as Superior, but DBA doesn't have this. You probably need to get into DBMM terrain for more historic accuracy. How would you class Caesar's Elite Legio X? They are already blade, The Argyraspids, they are pike do they also become blade?
If you are a romantic, like me, and want to try try your hand at being an Alexander, Caesar, Hannibal et al DBA doesn't do that.
Hmmm... I won at least 4 major tournaments as Alex. Cold Wars, Historicon, Nashcon.... Major US Tourneys... That seems to challenge your statement. Joe Collins
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Post by skb777 on Jan 21, 2023 9:34:59 GMT
Only if you misinterpreted what I meant, I didn't say you couldn't win with them 
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Post by diades on Jan 21, 2023 9:39:39 GMT
it isn't only the Carthaginians it has wrong though, so they are in good company. Veterans should be classed as Superior, but DBA doesn't have this. You probably need to get into DBMM terrain for more historic accuracy. How would you class Caesar's Elite Legio X? They are already blade, The Argyraspids, they are pike do they also become blade?
If you are a romantic, like me, and want to try try your hand at being an Alexander, Caesar, Hannibal et al DBA doesn't do that.
Hmmm... I won at least 4 major tournaments as Alex. Cold Wars, Historicon, Nashcon.... Major US Tourneys... That seems to challenge your statement. Joe Collins V2.2 or 3?
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Post by stevie on Jan 21, 2023 10:22:34 GMT
As if the Romans aren't hard done by enough in DBA we are now going to make there opponents even better. Hang on…one minute you’re saying that you don’t like the idea of making the Carthaginians stronger in DBA against the Romans… …but you don’t seem to mind if they are made stronger in DBMM. Now it is true that in DBA Spartans are no better than ordinary Greek Hoplites, and the Silver Shield Argyraspids are no better than ordinary Macedonian Phalangites. DBA could be considered as just a dumbed-down simplified version of DBMM (or DBMM is an over-complicated version of DBA)… …but with a few minor tweaks here and there, DBA could become a little more historically accurate, without making it more complex. It all boils down to each individual player’s personnel preference. Some people like ♫“Country and Western Music”♪, some like ♫”Heavy Metal Music”♪, and some like ♫”Hip-Hop Rap Music”♪. Which of them is right?
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Post by skb777 on Jan 21, 2023 10:39:56 GMT
Well it ain't hip-hop  No I'm saying the fact that the Romans (Pike and Spear also) can be quick killed in "every bound' in DBA by Warband seems a little unfair to myself, and means I'd shy away using a Roman Army against them. With DBMM it's back on the table. I'm also aware that this is an issue I have and isn't shared by anyone else, I am a sore loser and if i lost in 1 bound die to bad dice rolls the lot would go out of the window  Carthaginians are also stronger in DBMM. Would it make it more complicated to introduce different troop grades in DBA as per DBM/DBMM? But when do you stop I suppose. I guess it depends how you see it, I don't see DBA as the rule set I would play my favoured army in, as it isn't going to react the way you wold wish it to. I'd probably pick one that looked fun or knew little about because that way I wouldn't get too hung up when thing didn't turn out the way you'd expect. Some of the Ch'in with Hch, Wb and Cb look hilariously tickling or the Classical Indian with El, Hch and Bw and the Pyrrhic looks good.
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Post by jim1973 on Jan 21, 2023 16:09:21 GMT
It is a game though. Getting historically accurate results may not be great fun after a while. I'm happy with historically plausible with a nod to the historical results. Romans should beat Gauls more often but not to the point that no one buys Gallic miniatures. Most rules deal with this with points but then you simply get the repeated scenario of a small high quality army dealing with a larger low quality army trying to get around the flank. Though this happened, most ancient reports I read seem to indicate a thinning of the line to deal with these situations together with mounted and light troops protecting the flank and terrain anchors. Period specific house rules can certainly add to the flavour and get closer to history (eg Sparta gets 1-3 Spartiates elements that cause -1 to enemy heavy infantry) but this leads to predictable battles or ahistorical tactics IMHO. And that is another strength of DBA3. You can use it as tool kit and tinker it as much you like to get the game you want.
Jim
PS The issues with 4Aux and LH armies are more problematic as they don't seem to get near plausible historical results
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Post by lkmjbc on Jan 22, 2023 20:42:23 GMT
Hmmm... I won at least 4 major tournaments as Alex. Cold Wars, Historicon, Nashcon.... Major US Tourneys... That seems to challenge your statement. Joe Collins V2.2 or 3? 2.2 for certain, as I haven't had as much tournament experience in the last 8 years (though I have had some). Version 3 produces its own problems with Alex...some about which I have written extensively. The problems however are fairly particular against certain other armies (mainly Blade based). Though, I think moving to a Successor army could perhaps bring the Macedonians back to glory. I find DBA to be much more historical than most other Ancient rule sets. I think it does a great job at recreating historical battles... as you all know. The lack of grading factors is easily remedied for historical battle games. Their inclusion certainly is helpful for Cannae and such. Joe Collins
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Post by dpd on Feb 11, 2023 10:52:33 GMT
Hannibal's veterans on the flanks of the Spaniards and Gauls are usually shown to be in deep formation, allowing them to punch through the Roman flanks and then hem them in on the right and left.
Is this another example of an 8sp formation to add with the Thebans of Epaminondas and performing the same tactical function as his deep spear formation defeating the Spartans at Leuctra?
So treat Carthaginian heavy African foot as 8sp?
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