Post by stevie on Mar 23, 2019 13:15:35 GMT
For a start, Hannibal should have his own army list:-
II/32c Hannibal’s Army (218 BC - 202 BC) Terrain: Arable. Aggression 2.
According to DBA, he’s was an ordinary army, no different from any other Carthaginian army.
Well Polybius says otherwise (see www.johndclare.net/AncientHistory/Hannibal_Sources6.html ),
and as Polybius talked to survivors that actually fought in the 2nd Punic War, he should know.
And giving him a lower aggression than the Romans means it is he that picks the field of battle.
Army Composition...wrong!
Hannibal’s Libyans should be Bd, not Sp, partly because they used captured Roman equipment,
but mainly because they were veterans...and veteran spears would be better than ordinary spears.
Does it not say at the top of page 3 “Troops are defined by battlefield behaviour”?
Well, was their behaviour at Cannae that of passive spearmen huddling in a defensive shield wall?
Or did he use them aggressively to attack?
Hannibal’s Spanish troops should fight as 3Bd. When he left Spain, how many of his Spanish were Celtiberians?
All, some, or none? All right then, after fighting across the River Rhone, fighting through the Alps, fighting
at the River Trebia, and fighting at Lake Trasimene, how many of these Spanish would be veterans at Cannae?
And if Celiberians can be 3Bd instead of 4Ax because they fight better than Iberians, so should veteran Spanish.
Hannibal’s Gauls should also fight as 3Bd. Apparently he retrained them to be more dependable in battle.
Now I hardly think he would have re-trained them to be worse! 4Wb are at least a threat to blades...
...4Ax are no threat whatsoever .Ah, but 3Bd can stand up to 4Bd, even if double-overlapped, at least for a while.
If Hannibal’s foot were veterans by the time they reached Cannae, what about his cavalry?
They too should be veterans...and what is better than Cv?...3Kn!
So Hannibal’s Spanish and Gallic cavalry should also fight as 3Kn, because veteran Cv are better than ordinary Cv.
(Unfortunately, there is no better version of LH, so his Numdian horsemen will have to stay as they are)
Army Deployment...wrong!
The army list says they should have 3 x Libyan or Poeni ‘spearmen’. How can you place 3 elements on two wings?
And at Cannae the Spanish-Gallic centre was projected forwards, in a convex crescent shape.
Try that with 4Ax against 4Bd and see what happens to your double-overlapped auxiliaries!
Here is an historical deployment:-
Velite Triari Triari Velite
Cavaly Blade Blade Blade Blade Blade Blade Cavalry
Gauls Span
Span Gauls
Gallic Spanish Vets Vets Numid Numid
Psiloi Psiloi
(these are the positions after the skirmishers have fallen back or been driven off.
Yes, the Romans did have more men, so each Blade represents more ranks deep)
Victory Conditions...wrong!
Hannibal wasn’t on his left wing with his cavalry...he was in the centre.
Paullus may have started on his right with his cavalry, but he later joined his centre, where he was killed.
According to DBA and the Army Lists, lose the cavalry on each wing (one of them being the general) and
just one element of foot (a Psiloi will do) and the Romans are defeated!
Better to have the generals where they should be, in the centre with their blades, so the battle lasts longer.
Conclusion
There was nothing ‘unique’ or ‘special’ about the battle of Cannae in 216 BC.
It was just a ‘delay-in-the-centre-and-envelope-the wings’ type of battle.
Hannibal tried it two years earlier at Trebia (but the centre didn’t hold, and some Romans broke through).
Scipio used it at Ilipa in 206 BC (although with fewer cavalry, he used his legionaries for the envelopment).
Scipio used it again at Zama in 202 BC (but he lost control of his horsemen, who went on a long wild chase).
Agricola used it at Mons Graupius in 84 AD (holding the centre with his Auxilia while his cavalry enveloped).
And it’s a bit embarrassing that a set of rules that claims to be based on history cannot reproduce this famous engagement.
Ah...but it can...if you give Hannibal the right tools to do the job...
Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
II/32c Hannibal’s Army (218 BC - 202 BC) Terrain: Arable. Aggression 2.
According to DBA, he’s was an ordinary army, no different from any other Carthaginian army.
Well Polybius says otherwise (see www.johndclare.net/AncientHistory/Hannibal_Sources6.html ),
and as Polybius talked to survivors that actually fought in the 2nd Punic War, he should know.
And giving him a lower aggression than the Romans means it is he that picks the field of battle.
Army Composition...wrong!
Hannibal’s Libyans should be Bd, not Sp, partly because they used captured Roman equipment,
but mainly because they were veterans...and veteran spears would be better than ordinary spears.
Does it not say at the top of page 3 “Troops are defined by battlefield behaviour”?
Well, was their behaviour at Cannae that of passive spearmen huddling in a defensive shield wall?
Or did he use them aggressively to attack?
Hannibal’s Spanish troops should fight as 3Bd. When he left Spain, how many of his Spanish were Celtiberians?
All, some, or none? All right then, after fighting across the River Rhone, fighting through the Alps, fighting
at the River Trebia, and fighting at Lake Trasimene, how many of these Spanish would be veterans at Cannae?
And if Celiberians can be 3Bd instead of 4Ax because they fight better than Iberians, so should veteran Spanish.
Hannibal’s Gauls should also fight as 3Bd. Apparently he retrained them to be more dependable in battle.
Now I hardly think he would have re-trained them to be worse! 4Wb are at least a threat to blades...
...4Ax are no threat whatsoever .Ah, but 3Bd can stand up to 4Bd, even if double-overlapped, at least for a while.
If Hannibal’s foot were veterans by the time they reached Cannae, what about his cavalry?
They too should be veterans...and what is better than Cv?...3Kn!
So Hannibal’s Spanish and Gallic cavalry should also fight as 3Kn, because veteran Cv are better than ordinary Cv.
(Unfortunately, there is no better version of LH, so his Numdian horsemen will have to stay as they are)
Army Deployment...wrong!
The army list says they should have 3 x Libyan or Poeni ‘spearmen’. How can you place 3 elements on two wings?
And at Cannae the Spanish-Gallic centre was projected forwards, in a convex crescent shape.
Try that with 4Ax against 4Bd and see what happens to your double-overlapped auxiliaries!
Here is an historical deployment:-
Velite Triari Triari Velite
Cavaly Blade Blade Blade Blade Blade Blade Cavalry
Gauls Span
Span Gauls
Gallic Spanish Vets Vets Numid Numid
Psiloi Psiloi
(these are the positions after the skirmishers have fallen back or been driven off.
Yes, the Romans did have more men, so each Blade represents more ranks deep)
Victory Conditions...wrong!
Hannibal wasn’t on his left wing with his cavalry...he was in the centre.
Paullus may have started on his right with his cavalry, but he later joined his centre, where he was killed.
According to DBA and the Army Lists, lose the cavalry on each wing (one of them being the general) and
just one element of foot (a Psiloi will do) and the Romans are defeated!
Better to have the generals where they should be, in the centre with their blades, so the battle lasts longer.
Conclusion
There was nothing ‘unique’ or ‘special’ about the battle of Cannae in 216 BC.
It was just a ‘delay-in-the-centre-and-envelope-the wings’ type of battle.
Hannibal tried it two years earlier at Trebia (but the centre didn’t hold, and some Romans broke through).
Scipio used it at Ilipa in 206 BC (although with fewer cavalry, he used his legionaries for the envelopment).
Scipio used it again at Zama in 202 BC (but he lost control of his horsemen, who went on a long wild chase).
Agricola used it at Mons Graupius in 84 AD (holding the centre with his Auxilia while his cavalry enveloped).
And it’s a bit embarrassing that a set of rules that claims to be based on history cannot reproduce this famous engagement.
Ah...but it can...if you give Hannibal the right tools to do the job...
Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
