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Post by j2klbs on Aug 13, 2018 18:14:04 GMT
Hi all. I'm new to this game so this post is part rules clarification and part soliciting feedback on camp tactics.
I've watched a few videos (thanks guys!). It seems in all of the videos I never see camp followers in the camps. As I understand camps ...
Three Options:
A) No camp followers and any enemy moving up to it can sack it counting as one lost element.
B) Model camp with fixed camp followers. (Why would this option ever be taken? Seems like if you want camp followers, option C gives you more flexibility.)
C) Can include camp followers who are +2/+0 but if they die, will count as lost element and camp will also be sacked, thus 2 lost elements.
1. It seems to me that the pro's at this game have determined option A is the best choice. But given that, couldn't one tactic be to race a LH (up to 12 BW's or ~19" spending 3 PIP's) to get an easy lost element? (I recognize this costs PIP's and concedes initiative - is that why this is not done? Still seems like situationally this could be useful.)
2. Why aren't camp followers used more? Can they ever be useful to offer some light resistance to having camp sacked plus, maybe in a pinch, move out and provide overlap bonuses?
Regards,
~Jason
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Post by menacussecundus on Aug 13, 2018 18:38:23 GMT
Not quite, j2klbs. Camp followers - like Hordes and Scythed Chariots - don't count towards the total of elements lost. (See the first sentence of the section headed WINNING AND LOSING THE BATTLE on page 12.)
Also, troops defending a camp use their combat factor against foot (section headed Close combat against a city, fort or camp on page 10).
So camp followers (fixed or free-moving) have a basic factor of +2 and a further +2 for defending the camp and if they are destroyed and the camp is captured it only counts as one element towards the attacker's victory target.
Incidentally, a lot of UK players have invisible camp followers lurking inside the tent or whatever is used to denote the camp.
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Post by timurilank on Aug 13, 2018 18:43:36 GMT
Hi all. I'm new to this game so this post is part rules clarification and part soliciting feedback on camp tactics. I've watched a few videos (thanks guys!). It seems in all of the videos I never see camp followers in the camps. As I understand camps ... Three Options: A) No camp followers and any enemy moving up to it can sack it counting as one lost element. B) Model camp with fixed camp followers. (Why would this option ever be taken? Seems like if you want camp followers, option C gives you more flexibility.) C) Can include camp followers who are +2/+0 but if they die, will count as lost element and camp will also be sacked, thus 2 lost elements. 1. It seems to me that the pro's at this game have determined option A is the best choice. But given that, couldn't one tactic be to race a LH (up to 12 BW's or ~19" spending 3 PIP's) to get an easy lost element? (I recognize this costs PIP's and concedes initiative - is that why this is not done? Still seems like situationally this could be useful.) 2. Why aren't camp followers used more? Can they ever be useful to offer some light resistance to having camp sacked plus, maybe in a pinch, move out and provide overlap bonuses? Regards, ~Jason j2klbs,
Welcome to the forum.
We use the larger 80cm x 80cm board and in our experience no one has attempted to assault a camp as turn two the first combats are under way. Subsequent turns will usually require necessary pip expenditure elsewhere, so assaulting a camp becomes a distance plan.
Having said that, I have camp elements for most of my armies.
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Aug 13, 2018 19:55:01 GMT
Not quite, j2klbs. Camp followers - like Hordes and Scythed Chariots - don't count towards the total of elements lost. (See the first sentence of the section headed WINNING AND LOSING THE BATTLE on page 12.) Also, troops defending a camp use their combat factor against foot (section headed Close combat against a city, fort or camp on page 10). So camp followers (fixed or free-moving) have a basic factor of +2 and a further +2 for defending the camp and if they are destroyed and the camp is captured it only counts as one element towards the attacker's victory target. Incidentally, a lot of UK players have invisible camp followers lurking inside the tent or whatever is used to denote the camp. This is also the case of all of the people I have played over 14 years, I think only TWO have ever used camp followers. They are always ASSUMED to be in the camp. This is especially true as all camps are not necessarily IN SCALE with the rest of the figures. |
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Post by Baldie on Aug 13, 2018 20:10:54 GMT
In my clubs we say camp is always occupied.
Can't remember anyone ever taking followers and coming out and only a couple of times ever seen a stand used to defend camp or city.
I like to model figs on camps where I can cos I think it looks nice.
Castle doesn't have any you can se but it is a big castle so bound to have places they can hide easily.
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Post by primuspilus on Aug 13, 2018 20:17:24 GMT
I once used a camp follower to help out with a long-running combat between my 3Ax and an opposing 4Ax... It was sure nice to pull a rabbit out of the hat that way.
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Post by j2klbs on Aug 13, 2018 20:36:52 GMT
You guys rock! Thanks for the clarifications.
Since camp followers don't cost victory points, I guess it's safe to assume they are always there as there is no upside to not taking them.
Two follow-up comments:
1. What about deploying a little further back with main line, having camp followers pop out on 1st bound and group move. Seems like having an extra guy for potential overlap could be useful - especially if you were not up against a fast opponent that might race around and sack your camp.
2. If I understand correctly, camp followers are only +0 vs. mounted (then get +2 bonus). LH are also +2 and would insta-kill camp followers if they won. Seems like one could race LH around the flank threatening camp. Opponent must either peel off someone to deal with LH or risk having camp sacked. Thoughts?
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Post by martin on Aug 13, 2018 21:01:22 GMT
Since camp followers don't cost victory points, I guess it's safe to assume they are always there as there is no upside to not taking them. Two follow-up comments: > > 2. If I understand correctly, camp followers are only +0 vs. mounted (then get +2 bonus). LH are also +2 and would insta-kill camp followers if they won. Seems like one could race LH around the flank threatening camp. Opponent must either peel off someone to deal with LH or risk having camp sacked. Thoughts? Troops attacking or defending a camp use their combat factor as if against foot (in the factors section somewhere), so if the CF are defending a camp against ANYTHING inc those marauding LH they use +2 and then a further +2 for defending camp, so total +4. So unsupported LH attempting to raid a camp are therefore +2 vs +4 before dicing. NB...beware, Colin the Hittite and cgothicus will send their camp followers out to close a flank on you just when you expect it least ...grrrr. |
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Post by stevie on Aug 13, 2018 23:07:03 GMT
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Post by j2klbs on Aug 14, 2018 1:03:41 GMT
I see! Well in that case the LH strategy just won't be effective.  |
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Post by martin on Aug 14, 2018 9:24:29 GMT
Thanks Stevie....I didn’t have the book mear me to seek out the rule....and yes, the index you produced to where to find all rule references is very useful. Mark Skelton highlighted it to me. The LH CAN still raid camps ok, but have to be wary, cos they flee a lot, so pick your direction of attack with that in mind. |
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Post by Vic on Aug 14, 2018 10:42:32 GMT
I'm still building my first armies since I got back into the hobby, but I'm making sure to include camp elements in them, mostly because, unless you buy miniatures by the unit, just by assembling an army you'll most likely have 2-4 lighter, unarmoured miniatures that can be a suitable camp element. And although the chance that these could be useful in a game is slim, the additional effort is so low that it's worth it. I'm currently using camp elements to try my painting ideas for the army out and see how they work, which is another benefit - if some painting experiment is going to end up not so great, I'd prefer it to be an element that ends up hidden behind a palisade anyway.
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Post by jim1973 on Aug 14, 2018 23:16:10 GMT
The Camp follower limitations written in the rules are an unnecessary complication and universally ignored. Why would you limit player's creative ideas modelling a camp by having either/or rules? Definitely a rule that should be removed in any future iterations. I enjoy painting camps with all menagerie of people present and I also enjoy painting camp follower elements as again they are fun and may even give someone a nasty surprise. All camps in my games are occupied and can provide followers. If someone has a particularly poor memory then a casualty ring can be placed on the camp to indicate that it is currently empty for game purposes.
Game on!
Cheers
Jim
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Post by phippsy on Aug 18, 2018 23:32:27 GMT
Ah camp tactics - I remember my first ever PAWS event, when I was kindly provided with Vikings (littoral). I am sure it was Martin, might have been Richard, who produced a box of multi dimensional camps, and dropped one of 1/2 bw by 3bw on a waterway as ‘an anti littoral landing’ camp. One learns fast in such environments.
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, and here are a few other things about camps:-
