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Post by wjhupp on Aug 6, 2016 15:48:53 GMT
In returning to medieval warfare after a break on the classical front, I was going through some of my 2.2 armies and noted a change. Early Russians (378/379) changed from Cv under 2.2 to Kn under 3.0. 444 Post Mongol Russians go back to Cv.
Any thoughts on how the thinking changed or what changed it to make them knights?
Eastern Europeans is one of our bigger lines at T&R.
Bill
Thistle & Rose Miniatures
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Post by Simon on Aug 6, 2016 21:11:49 GMT
I had a quick look at my Armies of Feudal Europe book and that mentioned the Russian heavy cavalry charging home so that might merit them being knights? Doesn't explain the change from v 2.2 to v 3 though!
Simon
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Post by mthrguth on Aug 8, 2016 13:47:47 GMT
Subject of interest to me at this point, particularly for 1227 Kalka River, first encounter of Russians and Mongols; are there any other balanced field battles between them? Don't think so....
So, Gorelik has Russian mounted of this century as no horse armor, bows, swords, spear. Nicolle's book on later Russian Medieval armies has many copies of 13th century illustrations of Russian cavalry. These illustrations show NO LANCES. This is in comparison with 14th century illustration which shows lances. This makes the early Russians seem like Cavalry to me. The McBride illustrations of Nicolle's book show much heavier armor and couched spears AFTER the Mongol invasion.
Early Russian cavalry had been fighting the Cuman/Kipcheks for some decades, so they had plenty of time to adopt to steppe warfare tactics; I would theorize by going bow armed mounted not depending on suicidal charges at light cavalry. The Mongols may have surprised the Russians not with horse archers but with more heavily armored lance armed heavy cavalry closer to Cataphracts.
Gorelik confirms adoption of horse armor AFTER the Mongol contact.
If Russians ever had effective lance armed charging knights it is interesting to ask why they would have disappeared, which they did, by the 15th or 16th centuries when Russian Boyar cavalry becomes all bow/mace/sword armed.
I have to read the poem of Prince Igor, which may bear on this. But right now I think DBA 3.0 has it backwards. Russians were CAVALRY before the Mongol contact and MAYBE knights afterwards, again based on the contemporary illustrations.
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