|
|
Post by greedo on Apr 18, 2018 22:12:32 GMT
So why is it that you only need 1/3 destroyer elements to break an army? Why not a 1/2 like almost every other wargame? Is it that the outcome is pretty much decided by 1/3? Is it to stop you having to chase down all those fled Ps? Just curious  Chris |
|
|
|
Post by bob on Apr 19, 2018 6:27:23 GMT
You need 1/3 destroyed elements because that is the rule. Note the details, not just 1/3 of elements in army. Please keep in mind that these rules are based on Phil Barkers ideas of ancient warfare. There are many cases in the rules where he did not explain why he did something. Why does the first double element count as 2 but not the rest. In the beginning, 1990, camp followers counted for losses. In 2.2 Hordes counted. In 2.2 losing a general and more elements lost you the game. By the way, I have played lots of war-games where losing 1/2 did not lose the game.
DBA 3
"The first side that at the end of any bound has now lost a total of 4 elements not including Scythed Chariots, Hordes, camp followers or denizens and has also lost more such elements than the enemy, has lost the battle. The first double element lost counts as 2 elements lost. A general lost during the battle counts as 1 extra element lost. A camp that has been sacked by enemy counts as 1 element lost. A city occupied by enemy during the battle which has not been re-captured or been subject to a revolt counts as 2 elements lost if it was used without a camp or 1 if used with a camp."
DBA 2.2
"WINNING AND LOSING
The first side that at the end of any bound has lost either its general or 4 elements not including Scythed Chariots, camp followers or denizens and has also lost more such elements than the enemy, loses the battle. A camp or BUA occupied by enemy during the battle and still under enemy control counts as 2 extra elements lost. Elements that recoil, flee or otherwise move across a battlefield edge count as lost, but reappear in the next turn of a campaign. "
DBA 1.1
The first side that at the end of any bound has lost either its general or 4 elements, and has also lost more elements than the enemy, loses the battle. A camp still occupied by enemy counts as 2 elements lost extra to the loss of its camp follower or other garrison. Elements that recoil or flee from a camp or across a board edge are counted as lost, although they may reappear in the next turn of a campaign.
|
|
|
|
Post by paulhannah on Apr 19, 2018 13:52:23 GMT
Bob replied with the textbook answer, but DBA games are not always over when a third of the army has been destroyed. As an extreme example, when I'm running my wacky III/20b Sui Army, "the Million Man Army", it's possible for me to have lost fully three-fourths of the army (6 expendable Solid Hordes and 3 other elements) and still be in the game with a chance to win. Isn't DBA grand? So, if you want an army that will fight almost to the last man, build this army. Or Aztecs, Early Libs, etc. |
|
|
|
Post by edonaldson on Apr 19, 2018 15:11:03 GMT
I've played against Paul's "Million Horde" army. Its like playing "whack-a-mole". You keep destroying elements but not get any closer to victory. My solution? Paint an Aztec army so I can return the favor.
|
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Apr 19, 2018 16:58:47 GMT
I've played against Paul's "Million Horde" army. Its like playing "whack-a-mole". You keep destroying elements but not get any closer to victory. My solution? Paint an Aztec army so I can return the favor. Good points! I think I remember HOTT, where if you roll a 6 pips, destroyed hordes come BACK on the field! |
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Apr 19, 2018 17:01:35 GMT
You need 1/3 destroyed elements because that is the rule. Note the details, not just 1/3 of elements in army. Please keep in mind that these rules are based on Phil Barkers ideas of ancient warfare. There are many cases in the rules where he did not explain why he did something. Why does the first double element count as 2 but not the rest. In the beginning, 1990, camp followers counted for losses. In 2.2 Hordes counted. In 2.2 losing a general and more elements lost you the game. By the way, I have played lots of war-games where losing 1/2 did not lose the game. Hi Bob, I'm not complaining at all I'm a designer at heart, and love reading the design notes section of wargames to see what the author was thinking about when crafting. My guess is the 1/3 came from playtesting, and felt right, but I wondering it had come about from experience, playtesting, what "felt right" etc. I'll stand by my comment about 1/2 simply because that seems to be standard everwhere else, but that doesn't mean it needs be in DBA. And yes, I forgot about Hordes and S Chariots, but my armies tend not to use them much! Thanks again, Chris |
|
|
|
Post by bob on Apr 19, 2018 17:29:53 GMT
Hordes in HOTT come back for just 1 PIP. I argued for returnable Hordes in DBA 3, but that went down the tubes, with lots of other "good" suggestions:)
|
|
|
|
Post by greedo on Apr 19, 2018 18:04:31 GMT
Hordes in HOTT come back for just 1 PIP. I argued for returnable Hordes in DBA 3, but that went down the tubes, with lots of other "good" suggestions:) Haha! I can imagine endless hordes of Goblins coming from holes in the ground. I know it cost a PIP, but didn't the player have to ROLL a 6 to open up that option? Might have to read the rules again... I can't really imagine endless Spartan Heolets tho (and glad they are an option), and actually feel kinda sorry for the Historical Hordes I just send to their doom... reminds me of the Mongols. |
|
|
|
Post by medievalthomas on Apr 19, 2018 18:11:41 GMT
Its 1/3 to speed up tournament games. It often leads to armies breaking after a few weak fish are killed about which the real historical army would have carried little.
HOTT use 1/2 of the points - which also has some issues.
Best rule: an Army is Broken when it does not have more elements on table than destroyed/fled off table etc. Hordes, LF, expendables count as 1/2 element. An Army is Destoryed when it has no elements on table.
This can't be used in tournaments Bob is correct that the 1/3 is Phil's rule and must be applied to all DBA 3.0 tournaments.
Resurrecting Hordes for 1 PIP has some issues. Best left to Fantasy "Undead" armies.
TomT
|
|
|
|
Post by paddy649 on Apr 19, 2018 20:58:50 GMT
My solution? Paint an Aztec army so I can return the favor. Absolutely - my Aztecs are colourful, fun to play and nearly indestructible. You loose 9 combats, the opponent looses 3 and its even stevens! Classic! Plus Hordes are no slouches in combat - sometimes they are very sticky.
Paddy
|
|
|
|
Post by jim1973 on Apr 20, 2018 9:23:33 GMT
There are a number of house rule mechanisms you could use that have been tried by other rules:
1) Identify the "Core" units of an army (e.g. Greek Hoplites) and end the game when a third/half of them are lost
2) After losing four element equivalents you roll a dice. Keep fighting if you roll higher than your losses. Repeat each turn or each further loss
3) Roll for each element against their combat factor versus the closest enemy. Roll higher to stay in the fight.
If you try any please let us know the outcome.
Cheers
Jim
|
|
|
|
Post by timurilank on Apr 20, 2018 18:49:04 GMT
So why is it that you only need 1/3 destroyer elements to break an army? Why not a 1/2 like almost every other wargame? Is it that the outcome is pretty much decided by 1/3? Is it to stop you having to chase down all those fled Ps? Just curious Chris Aside from the changes already noted, I found the loss of the general did not necessarily mean the end of the game. There have been a few victories achieved without his presence.
|
|
