3.0 Ps, Sp, El, and 4Bd

1. Psiloi are indeed now an excellent screen for slowing down an enemy. They are less useful on the flanks against Lh because of the Cv elements that usually accompany them. 4Ax are much better and 3Ax will do. Ps remain the best bad going troops... and are even better now with group moves and ignoring corner to corner overlaps.

2. Thanks for the mention.

3. Side support makes Hoplite battles quite fun. Correct tactics can net +5 vs +3 attacks...

4. Somewhat. Cannae is certainly possible, but still difficult unless the Ax are rated as Superior in some way (they are in DBMM). Some folks are testing rules to improve this situation. I suggest the following...

If beaten but not doubled.

Auxilia... Destroyed by Knights in good going. Recoiled 1BW by Pike or Blade, else recoil.

This makes the Auxilia break contact on a loss. The Pike or Blade still pursues... but the elements won't be in contact for the next bound.

5. These represents the flexibility of Lh armies to suddenly concentrate combat power at important spots... moving from shoot and scoot to a sudden decisive charge.

Carthaginians do much better against the Poly Romans that 2.2... It is still a tough fight where the Romans have an upper hand... but Hannibal can now win. DBA 3 really lends itself well to the Punic war period.

Joe Collins

Thanks for the reply!

1. Does this encourage Ps + LH mixing on the flanks (ala Alexander?) or I guess it's good to have LH is solid blocks because their command range is so big now...
Also, I love the no corner overlap. Means they could actually push a Sp back (if they are lucky)

2. It's great to see the rules used to show history. Refutes the "just pushing blocks and pip management" that gets tossed at DBA..

3. +5 vs +3? Sp = 4, with side support = 5. If a single Sp is against a wall, then he's +2 isn't he? (+4 with 2 overlaps = +2). Has that changed?

4. Yeah, I'm ok with it. Cannae is always supposed to be an edge case right? And recoil is 1/2BW or base depth, whichever is less right? Maybe light troops should recoil a 1 BW....?

5. Good to know. Will try out some LH heavy armies to see how to they match up.. That was always a complaint I remember in 2.2 was LH armies having to fight in lines because the command distance was too short.

Extra: I didn't know Romans had a 6Bd option. Is this supposed to represent the line switching? Also, you could also make Romand camps worth 3 elements if captured That's an incentive to keep a strong guard there...

[They don't. Pretty sure "Primuspilus" was suggesting the Roman player not use the 6 x 4Bd option; rather that they employ the 4 x 4Bd option with the 2 x 3/4Ax Allies.]

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks

Actually on the subject of hoplites:

1) How do Thessalians do vs Athenians or Spartans? i.e. Cv and LH are now faster (LH REALLY fast). How do these guys do against a Shield Wall? I'd love to see. The Sp have lots of side support, but the LH and Cv can do lots of flanking

2) My experience (limited) was that Athenians vs Early Persians (i.e. Marathon) was always a win for the Athenians because Sp was just so strong vs Bw. Does the +1 for 8Bw make them more interesting fights now? Also does the faster mounted games mean the Persians can get around the back?

3) Also, I noticed in the Early Athenian list that Thracians were ranked as Ps, but I remember then as 3/4Ax back in 2.2. Has this changed, or is it a typo?
Is there an online Errata sheet with corrections?

4) I need to look this up. Is it true that capturing a camp is only 1 element lost now? Just saw that.

Thanks for the all the answers! I just saw ForgedInBattle 15mm ancients and those Corinthian helmeted Spartan figs look AWESOME.

Chris

Thanks Stevie, yeah I got the +1 for side only.
Interesting that Spears went from rear supported +1 vs mounted to +1 for side support against foot.. Cool at any rate.

Ok, but I still don't get the Thracians Ps. The Thracian army I/48 has a bunch of 4Ax..... ok wait, now that I read it, it's a mixture of 3Ax, and Ps. ok I give. The definition of Ax vs Ps must have changed somewhat...

Ok, but still Thassalian vs Hoplite? Or Persian vs Hoplite? How do they do now?

Thanks! Really pumped,
Chris

Oh, that’s just me using practical English to describe the situation Bob.

Page 7 paragraph 7 says that you don’t need a camp if you have a city present.
So where is all the army’s baggage and supplies?
Why, it’s in the city.

And page 12 paragraph 13 says a city that has been captured counts as 2 elements lost if used without a camp.
Why is its loss worth more?
Because it contains all the army’s baggage and supplies.

Perhaps I should have said “when all the army’s vulnerable baggage and equipment is placed in a city instead of being in a separate protected camp”, even though we don’t actually visually show it as such on our wargames table.

After all, from an army’s point of view, it’s the baggage, tents, bedding, food supplies, cooking equipment, warchest, captured booty, camp followers and sometimes even the soldiers wives and children that make ‘the camp’.
The ditch and palisade are just there to protect it.



Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018

Thanks all for the kind comments regarding adding a bit more historical feel to everyone's favorite 12 element "chess" match. We developers have only recently emerged from our foxholes after the pounding we took re "ruining" DBA (Phil got hit the worst one of the reasons he's not as engaged as he once was but age has played at least as big a factor). Just getting rid of the silly Ps support rule (much beloved by the big and noisy Blade lobby) took an act of God (in this case Phil the Supreme Being). And kudos to Phil for creating Side Support (i.e. Retinue ability for Blade/Bow and Shieldwall for Spear), even I initially doubted this concept (I thought given the acrimony at the time no one would accept such an radical advance in DBX mechanics), but he stuck to his guns (er Spears).

So I hope that despite the big rift in the US and player drop off, 3.0 was worth it and its nice to read appreciations and esp. respect for the attempt to get things to work a bit more like an historical battle. (Outside of our DBX bubble the mechanics do get a lot of criticism for being abstract nonsense and while I believe the bulk of it is unjustified, not all of it particularly re where DBA had drifted prior to 3.0.)

As to the discussion re Aux and Fleeing: it seems better for at home historical battles to keep troops classed as Aux as Aux but just give them an Evade Ability (they convert Destroyed on Double Results to Flee Results against opponents with a lower MA in the terrain occupied). For Cannae (and many other battles) you probably need to create a "Sword" armed Aux (i.e. +1 v. Foot -1 v. Mounted - like Blades).

Please understand that given the climate during DBA 3.0 development we could not address everything. We had to pick our battles (and OK I picked trying to improve HYW and WOR battles as its a main area of interest and was pretty bad in 2.2). It would have been nice to have had an innovative classicist on the development team to work on those interactions. A bit more effort re Pike might have helped (but Shieldwall does help Hoplites).

TomT