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Post by martini on Jan 10, 2018 20:00:51 GMT
Suppose you have 4 elements of warband in a line in bad going; for 1 PIP can you form them into a single element wide column?
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Post by Simon on Jan 10, 2018 20:38:07 GMT
Interesting question! I would say no - on the grounds that this is effectively a group move that starts in a non-column formation so doesn't count as a column move.
Cheers
Simon
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jan 10, 2018 21:23:47 GMT
The only "group" involving Wb you can move as a group in BG is a column.
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Post by stevie on Jan 10, 2018 22:03:05 GMT
Actually Simon and Tony, the very last paragraph on page 8 says:- “A group move by road, or across bad (not rough) going, must be in or into a column (unless entirely by Psiloi). A group move can include reducing frontage to form such a column for this or any other purpose.” Note the words “ …across bad going…in or into a column.” So I’d say martini is right, you can. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by Simon on Jan 11, 2018 9:19:04 GMT
Interesting Stevie. I had read that (and may still do!) as meaning that a group could form a line outside the bad going and then move across it as a group move. I would imagine that forming a column is at least as complex than moving forward in a line while actually in bad going.
Cheersd
Simon
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Post by stevie on Jan 11, 2018 10:35:42 GMT
Well Simon, the way I interpret it (and I could be wrong of course), is a follows. There are three ways of moving a group into, through, or across bad going:- a) you must already be in a column formation, or b) you must move into a column formation, or c) be entirely of psiloi. So if a line starts in good going, it’ll have to form-up into a column to be able to move as a group when it enters the bad going. And if the line starts in bad going, it’ll have to form-up into column to be able to move as a group through or across bad going. As for forming a column while in bad going…is it really that difficult? “Centurion, order the 2nd cohort to advance and tell cohorts 1 and 3 to fall-in behind and follow it”.Certainly re-forming a column back into a line would be much harder, especially in a wood where the trees make it difficult to see if your mates are in a straight line and all facing in the same direction. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by martini on Jan 11, 2018 12:02:57 GMT
Many thanks for the responses. My interpretation is the same as Stevie but I guess that, within the DBA community, there is more than one way of looking at this. I asked the question because I plan to take part in a competition and will be using an army that has 5 elements of warband and the army's home terrain is 'hilly'; so there is a good chance that the warband will either be starting in bad going or will have to cross it at some point. I am happy to start in bad going because it does not reduce the warband's combat factor, but was concerned about not being able to deploy quickly out of the bad going if the situation requires it.
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Post by timurilank on Jan 11, 2018 12:19:37 GMT
To bring more clarity I would add the following;
“A group move by road, or across bad (not rough) going must be in or into a column unless entirely by Psiloi. A group move can include reducing frontage to form such a column for this or any other purpose.”
Add:
"The leading element moves forward then others successively join behind it moving as if by single element moves. No element can end with its front edge further to its original rear. Elements that do not form the tail of the column that could are no longer part of the same group. Once in the column, each element follows the leading element and wheels at the same place through the same angles.
Example:
Four warband (4Wb) in line have element number two or three become the head of the column by moving its full distance (2BW).
The two elements flanking it while in line move directly behind it with the fourth and furthest element previously in line forming the tail of the column.
Do take into consideration the distance each element needs to take to avoid friendly units or enemy threat zones.
Using either of the flanking elements of the line for form the head of the column will not work as well.
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Post by primuspilus on Jan 11, 2018 14:25:13 GMT
Note, the rule would state moving into the column is the group move, no? So since no element can exceed its move rate, I believe that you may not actually be able to get ALL four elements into the column. I believe the group move "into" column means to form the column. Only next bound would the column move forward as a group? I think this is the part Tony is catching. In old DBA, you could move part of the move in a line, and then some elements could tuck into column to avoid elements/terrain, etc.
I guess I am wondering if the "or" in the "in or into a column" is meant to be exclusive? Or would the lead Wb be able to move forward some, and the others fall in line, in which case Tony is correct, since as a line, they could not even begin a group move in the bad going!
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Post by bluestone28 on Jan 11, 2018 15:06:19 GMT
yes it's possible for 4 units in a line :
start : 4 in a line : A - B - C - D
1) B advance of 1.5 front and 0.5 on the left
2) A advance just behind B
3) C advance just behind A
4) D advance just behind C
and for 5 units it's normally possible too:
center unit advance of 2 Bw and left and right unit alternatively go behind each other
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Jan 11, 2018 15:31:25 GMT
Interesting Stevie. I had read that (and may still do!) as meaning that a group could form a line outside the bad going and then move across it as a group move. I would imagine that forming a column is at least as complex than moving forward in a line while actually in bad going. Cheersd Simon This is how we interpret it as well. |
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Post by stevie on Jan 11, 2018 15:33:07 GMT
I guess I am wondering if the "or" in the "in or into a column" is meant to be exclusive? Or would the lead Wb be able to move forward some, and the others fall in line, in which case Tony is correct, since as a line, they could not even begin a group move in the bad going! Hmmm….this is getting interesting (by that I mean complicated!). Ho Kay…let’s analyse the first two sentences of page 8 paragraph 12 in detail. Question: can a group move be made in bad going? Answer: yes, but only if already in a column, or, when moving into a column (see figure 4 on page 17). So you have two choices:- “A group move across bad going must be (choice number 1) already in or (choice number 2) into a column.” Question: but isn’t forming a column a group move? Answer: yes it is, but it’s one that is allowed even in bad going (again, see figure 4 on page 17). For nowhere in the rules do I see the words “you can only form a column in good going”. Therefore, you must be able to form columns in any going. And the rest of page 8 paragraph 12 explains the mechanics of how to form columns… …in any going, with no special rules about being in bad going. At least, that’s how we interpret it… Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by primuspilus on Jan 11, 2018 16:46:43 GMT
True, Stevie, but the act of forming the column.... does it include "forward group movement". I ask because in previous DBA editions, the act of forming the column typically occurred during a forward move by a line, the rear elements tucking in behind. When I read suggestions like "move one element forward by 1.5 BW, etc..." then I ask the question: "What does INTO column mean? In particular, is there forward movement allowed?"
You can see that under previous interpretations (and this is where Tony, Simon and me are coming from) you moved a line forward, the elements that would crash into some bad going or other elements would slide in at the back.
Such a line group move is not possible in bad going unless you are Psiloi. So how DO we "move into column" as a group move? What is the mechanic? I am not opposed to the ruling in DBA v3, I think people are ascribing mechanics to this move that are not articulated. Single element moves are one thing. Group moves are usually pretty clearly described: forward (which used to be how columns got formed as part of a group move), or wheeling about a front corner, or combinations thereof...
But single element moves are not group moves...
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Post by stevie on Jan 11, 2018 17:30:34 GMT
Oh, I see what you are saying Primuspilus. Now I must admit that I have no idea how the previous versions of DBA handled the situation. (I gave up DBA 2.2 decades ago, and have forgotten everything about it. I can only go by the rules as they are written now)But surely page 8 paragraph 12 tells you the mechanics of forming a column, as Timurilank posted:- Add:
"The leading element moves forward then others successively join behind it moving as if by single element moves. No element can end with its front edge further to its original rear. Elements that do not form the tail of the column that could are no longer part of the same group. Once in the column, each element follows the leading element and wheels at the same place through the same angles. From this I get the impression that players have to make the decision whether to form a column or not before they move… ...they cannot make ‘a forward group move and drop elements back’ any more. It’s one or the other now in DBA 3.0: either move forward as a line, or form a column, not both. In fact, page 8 paragraph 10 now says the following:- “ Moving groups [8.10]: Each of its elements must move parallel to or follow the first to move, move the same distance, or wheel forward (multiple times – FAQ) through the same angles…” Elements that ‘drop back’ are not “moving parallel to or following the first to move, or moving the same distance.” In effect, they are no longer a part of the group, and will need to pay extra PIP’s if they want to move differently. Could it be this mixing of old and new procedures that is causing the confusion? Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by macbeth on Jan 11, 2018 21:57:51 GMT
One other thing to remember is that most solid foot and all mounted can only move 1BW while in Bad Going so if not Fast Foot, Warband or Solid Auxilia the distance that an element can travel to form a column is severely restricted.
Cheers
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