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Post by bluestone28 on Oct 4, 2019 23:50:53 GMT
i will try with mine mates (thinking of nice fatigue markers... ) thanks! |
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Post by bluestone28 on Oct 8, 2019 8:12:13 GMT
Stevie, seem that in your Fatigue doc,
in your example you talked about Pk that could recoil through the supporting rear Pk,
is it legal? (i was thinking that Pk could recoil only through Bd)
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Post by stevie on Oct 8, 2019 9:40:46 GMT
You are of course correct...but when you add new rules (like ‘Fatigue’), you sometimes have to change other rules in order to make it work. To quote from the 'Fatigue' file:- “ Recoiling: all recoiling elements must interpenetrate and pass though the elements behind them, but only if they are the same type (i.e. Sp through Sp, Pk through Pk, Bd through Bd, Wb through Wb, Ax through Ax, Ps through Ps, Bow through Bow, etc) or if the recoilers are mounted.” And the examples:- “ Leuctra in 371 BC: fighting causes the front rank Spartans and front rank Thebans to become tired. But, being in a deeper formation, each time a Theban element recoils through the Sp behind it and becomes fatigued, a fresh one is is revealed. Soon the Spartans will run out of fresh elements, and have fatigued hoplites (now at -1) facing fresh Theban hoplites (at +1). Zama 202 BC: Hannibal’s first line of infantry was made up of Gauls and Ligurians, supported by citizen spearmen. But when the first line was recoiled, the Carthaginian spearmen behind them would not let them pass through (i.e. they were not spearmen, so couldn’t interpenetrate), so the recoiled fatigued Gauls and Ligurians (at -1) had to fight the victorious (but tired) hastatii of Scipio. Later in the battle Hannibal brought forward his fresh veterans, while Scipio brought up his fresh triarii.” Note that with ‘Fatigue’, the Theban’s no longer need artificial “Double Based 8Sp” elements...just 2 ordinary Sp elements one behind the other. And they were outnumbered at Leuctra - Thebes: 6 or 7,000 Hoplites and 1,500 Cavalry. Sparta: 10 or 11,000 Hoplites and 1,000 Cavalry. (See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leuctra )The “Theban Sacred Band” is represented by the Theban general element (so +1). Also, the true Spartiate numbers declined over the centuries, so there were only some 700 of them (say about 1 or 2 elements) at Leuctra, the rest of the so called ‘Spartan’ army was made up of ordinary Peloponnesian Hoplites. (See “Decline of the Spartiates” here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiate#Decline_of_Spartiates )Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by bluestone28 on Oct 8, 2019 12:35:39 GMT
ok thanks!  |
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Post by bluestone28 on Oct 8, 2019 16:09:43 GMT
so, - Is PS can recoil through all (and not PS only) - Is Mounted can recoil through all too ? - why not Bd through Sp or Ax or others ? (this time your rules is more limited than the original rules, that is a small revolution!  ) when you test it do you think that it work well without negative consequence on the rest ? thanks Eric |
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Post by stevie on Oct 8, 2019 16:39:08 GMT
My fault for not being clear. All the normal recoil and interpenetrating rules on page 9 still apply (except that Ps can recoil through other Ps...and why shouldn't they?!) But in addition, like troops must recoil and pass through friends, but only if these are the same type - i.e. Sp through Sp, Pk through Pk, Bd through, Bd, Wb through Wb, Ax through Ax, Ps through Ps, Bow through Bow, etc. Mounted already recoils through any friends (except Pk/Hd/Elephants). This is so that the 'Fatigued' recoiling element ends up behind the rear 'Fresh' element. And it's not voluntary...only as a result of an adverse recoil combat outcome, or if they spend two PIPs to move both elements individually so that they swap positions (if TZ's allow). I have extensively playtested all this...playing solo, as all my mates are old stick-in-the-muds.  |
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Post by bluestone28 on Oct 8, 2019 17:26:31 GMT
ok thanks a lot for all these precisions!
i suppose it change the game greatly?
is it longer with that fatigue rules?
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Post by stevie on Oct 8, 2019 19:33:49 GMT
Actually, it makes games a little bit quicker, as recoiled troops will be ‘Fatigued’ and have a -1, and may face ‘Fresh’ opponents with a +1, so the doubling chances are higher (making the pointless pushing and shoving of Pk v Pk and Bd v Bd a bit more decisive). Reserves become more important, as do skirmishing Ps...worried about your Blades facing Warbands with a CF of 3 with +1 for rear support and +1 for being ‘Fresh’? Then wear them down with your Velite skirmishing Psiloi (anyone rolling a combat die automatically becomes ‘Tired’ and loses their ‘Fresh’ marker...and they may even be recoiled and become ‘Fatigued’ before they even reach the main Hastatii battleline of legionaries). You can even enter bad going without becoming ‘Tired’ and losing your ‘Fresh’ marker. Troops that are slowed by terrain that start a bound in bad going and end a move in bad going become ‘Tired’. So move your heavy foot into bad going and halt there. If they are not moving then they won’t become ‘Tired’. Providing they move from good --->to bad ---> to good they won’t become ‘Tired’. Only by moving from bad ---> to bad do they lose their 'Fresh' marker. Anyway, fast troops are not slowed by bad going, so they don’t become ‘Tired’ by the terrain they pass through, only by rolling a combat dice (in melee or if shot at). Of course, all this requires more clever tactical thinking...and very careful timing of just when to use your valuable fresh reserves to get that battle winning result. |
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Post by bluestone28 on Oct 8, 2019 20:29:35 GMT
ah ok! it's more clear now, lot of possibilities, i'll test that asap! thanks again! Eric |
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Post by stevie on Oct 8, 2019 21:07:14 GMT
Oh, I forgot something (it's been a looong time since I playtested this).  It's not die rolling that makes troops 'Tired', but front-edge contact, as well as shooting or being shot at. Otherwise, those 'hard-flanking' an enemy would never get 'Tired'. |
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Post by greedo on Oct 12, 2019 0:34:08 GMT
Interesting house rule Stevie! I’ve always hoped for some kind of tired marker in DBA. Armani has fresh and spent troops, and it means that you might hold your knights off for a bit before the big charge so you don’t wear them out!
One question: why have 3 states? Why not just “fresh”, no bonus. And “tired”, -1? Or even -2 if you want things to fall apart quickly!
Did you find that only 2 states was not that helpful and 3 was necessary?
For your mates that would at least reduce the number of markers you’d need.
it also gives a nice choice for hoplites armies. Do you go wide for the side support or do you go deep for the fatigue relief?
Are Thebans the only army with 8Sp? This would other armies to decide to it or not.
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Post by chgowiz on Feb 21, 2020 17:55:02 GMT
Assigning fatigued to first recoil... there's some thought to that. I'm not as learned on historical examples, appreciate those!
This would quickly make for most everyone having -1 and the attrition aspect kinda goes away, in terms of whittling down the most recoiled troops.
Perhaps with each recoil, a -1 to the combat factor. A gradual weakening of troops. I have tons of D10s, and just put one next/near/on top of the element to note the penalty. Once they get to -3 or more, they're likely to be destroyed, which I would expect. The grinding away. Hmm... might have to try this in my next HOTT52 game...
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Post by stevie on Feb 22, 2020 9:34:25 GMT
Using small pieces of green square card as markers (with bright red and yellow flowers for
‘fresh’ troops, and a dropped shield + sword for ‘fatigued’ or ‘exhausted’ troops) would be
less visually distracting. If there isn’t enough room to lay the marker flat on a cramped
4-figure base you could always have the marker standing vertically between two figures.
I originally used printed pictures on thick paper to demonstrate the concept to my mates,
with the intention of later gluing them onto card and laminating them...but since there
was a lack of support for the idea I never got around to doing this.
Using card markers this way would give you the progressive fatigue-attrition that you
mentioned. Each recoil adds yet another dropped shield marker, and each dropped
shield marker adds a further -1 to the combat die roll.
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Post by stevie on Feb 22, 2020 10:59:45 GMT
Here are some further thoughts with the idea. Elite Troops: DBA has no grading for elites or veterans, but many armies had them, such as elite Spartans, elite Hypaspists, elite Argyraspid pikemen in the II/16d Eumene Successor army, Hannibal’s veterans at Cannae and Zama, and such like. These elite troops could start the battle with not one but two ‘fresh’ markers each. Players could even be assigned 12 ‘fresh’ markers on deployment and decide for themselves how they want to distribute them (with no more than two to an element). Pursuit: troops with a dropped shield ‘fatigue’ marker will not pursue (unless they are the rear ranks of a pursuing column). They’re too knackered. Resting: there should be no way of removing a dropped shield marker during a battle. To recover from fatigue or exhaustion requires a good meal and 8 solid hours of sleep. (At least, that’s what I require!  )I’m sure players can think of other ideas as well... |
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Post by timurilank on Feb 22, 2020 12:08:16 GMT
The Skoutatoi (8Bw)
The DBA Nikephorian Byzantine may have three or four such elements and my first three test games with the new army ended in defeat against the Iqshidid Egyptians. Assessing these disasters, I found myself nodding in agreement with the recent discussion visa vie, the shortcomings of the 8Bw, that is until I began reading E. Geer’s book, “Sowing the Dragon’s Teeth”. Deploying the army according to the tactical manual written by Nicephorus Phocas produced some remarkable clear victories.
The tactical manual, Praecepta Militaria, written by Nicephorus Phocas, is translated in full and Eric Geer breaks down in detail army deployment and tactics in the section describing ‘Battle’ part 1. Focusing on the 8Bw element, this equates to a taxiacrchies of 1,000 men. Broken down, the taxiacrchies represents 400 spearmen, 300 archers, 200 skirmishers and 100 menavlatoi.
The menavlatoi (3Bd)
The Sylloga Tacticorum (ca. 950) states the menavlatoi should advance ahead of the taxiacrchies to form a human breakwater against enemy ‘Kataphraktoi’. This proved less than successful and was revised 15 years later by Nicephorus in his Praecepta Militaria.
Deployed in 8 ranks, the menavlatoi take up a position at the rear unless, enemy heavy cavalry have formed up facing the taxiacrchies. That being the case, the first rank of spear withdraws to the rear of the formation as the menavlatoi move forward replacing the first rank. So employed, the heavy iron tipped spear when properly held functions as the stakes employed by the English archers or better yet, the chevaux-de-frise of the 18th century.
The skirmishers (Ps)
In the space between deployed taxiacrchies are the 200 skirmishers ready to issue out and flank any enemy cavalry that have become stalled due to a tenacious defence of the infantry.
Observations
The Nikephorian lists the infantry and options as follows;
3 x skoutatoi (8Bw),
1 x skoutatoi (8Bw) or archers (Ps),
1 x Rus (3Ax) or javelinmen (Ps) or menavlatoi (3Bd).
Positioning the skirmishers behind the skoutatoi duplicates their function as described above, however, the menavlatoi pose a different problem. Fielded as a separate element, players will no doubt find ways to use them as they were not intended or use them as intended and see them die a heroic death. If we consider the menavlatoi as part of the ‘solid and double based element’ then like Lb and Cb they could have a similar outcome on ‘even scores’ against knights and camelry.
Comments welcome.
Sowing the Dragon’s Teeth, Byzantine Warfare in the Tenth Century by Eric McGeer, Dumbarton Oaks, 2008.
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