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Post by martin on Mar 20, 2024 9:34:46 GMT
BBDBA question:-
I’m not experienced at BBDBA, so wondering if others who play it more could help…
If a command routs, do we count its lost sub-general (or even C-in-C) as ‘an extra element’.
So, eg if a command of 12 elements inc their sub-general is demoralised, further damaged and thus removed (at 1/2 losses), is this actually worth THIRTEEN elements when it comes to counting total losses across the army for ‘army break point’ (p13 of my hardback) ?
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Post by vodnik on Mar 20, 2024 10:42:30 GMT
...a broken commands movement is quite limited. But it can close ways. For the opponent it is important to attack enemies with the new free forces to win the battle...
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Post by paulisper on Mar 20, 2024 11:45:23 GMT
BBDBA question:- I’m not experienced at BBDBA, so wondering if others who play it more could help… If a command routs, do we count its lost sub-general (or even C-in-C) as ‘an extra element’. So, eg if a command of 12 elements inc their sub-general is demoralised, further damaged and thus removed (at 1/2 losses), is this actually worth THIRTEEN elements when it comes to counting total losses across the army for ‘army break point’ (p13 of my hardback) ? No, I don’t believe so and I’ve never played it that way. P |
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Post by martin on Mar 20, 2024 14:09:54 GMT
...a broken commands movement is quite limited. But it can close ways. For the opponent it is important to attack enemies with the new free forces to win the battle... Sorry, I have NO idea how this relates to my question 😶… Very‘ ‘Eric Cantona’…. |
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Post by vodnik on Mar 20, 2024 17:51:54 GMT
...i hope you know the confused general  To win a game you need 2 demoralisated enemy commands. If you will use your living elements to destroy more enemy commandsyou can win...What do you want more.. |
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Post by Peter Feinler on Mar 25, 2024 1:05:26 GMT
DBA 3 has muddied the BBDBA victory conditions.
I think that some rule changes could be made to clarify and improve this, such as:
- An element is lost if it is destroyed, crosses a battlefield edge or its command has been removed, but not if only demoralised.
[Just to make it clear that elements removed solely because of command removal count as lost.]
- The first double element lost by each command counts as 2 elements lost, and the loss of its general as an extra element lost, but only if that command is not yet demoralised.
[This should make it clear that when a demoralised general or double element is lost it counts only as a single element lost.]
- A command that has lost two-thirds of its original troop elements is removed.
[This would give more value to the loss of Hordes not counting towards the demoralisation of a command. Also, as I understand it, the command removal rule was introduced solely as a means of speeding the conclusion of BBDBA competition games and, to my mind, removal when half the command's elements are lost seems too drastic.]
- An army that has 2 of its commands removed or demoralised and:
- whose cumulative total of elements counted as lost at the end of any bound other than Scythed Chariots, camp followers or denizens is at least 18;
- and that has also lost more such elements than the enemy;
has lost the battle.
[This is an attempt to tie together the two existing sets of victory conditions (command removal or demoralisation and cumulative loss of elements) as currently they act separately from each other.]
Peter
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Post by evilgong on Mar 25, 2024 4:54:11 GMT
Yes the BB end-game stuff is underdone - indeed a few other sections could be improved as well, I think PB did not realise what a good game he has with BB.
Horde counting as zero lost is a problem magnified in BB where you can stack them in an area. Making them count as 1/2 a loss would be a good house rule.
Regards
David F Brown
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Post by martin on Mar 25, 2024 8:42:54 GMT
Peter, many thanks…that might well improve our ability to assess the damage, near game end.👍🏼👍🏼
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Post by Peter Feinler on Mar 27, 2024 2:41:12 GMT
Thinking further about this, including both element losses and command demoralisation or removal to determine army defeat may be overdoing things. Element losses should suffice. Moreover, this would render the command removal rule even more unnecessary than it already is and it could therefore be expunged from the rules.
The major complication with using element losses for army defeat is how to treat Hordes. Ignoring them for command demoralisation but fully counting them for army defeat seems unsatisfactory. Whereas ignoring them for army defeat would be too generous. David's suggestion of counting them as 1/2 an element loss may well be the most workable approach.
With this in mind, the rules for BBDBA command demoralisation and defeat could be:
A command that at the start of any of its bounds whose lost elements total a third of its original troop elements is permanently demoralised.
An army whose cumulative total of lost elements at the end of any bound is at least 18, and that has also lost more such elements than the enemy has lost the battle.
When determining the total of lost elements for both command demoralisation and army defeat:
- The first double element loss in each command counts as 3 elements lost if a general, otherwise as 2 elements lost, but only if that command is not yet demoralised;
- Any other general counts as 2 elements lost but only if in a command that is not yet demoralised;
- Each element of Hordes counts as 1/2 an element lost;
- An allied command whose camp is sacked counts this as 1 element lost only to that command;
- Any other camp sacked counts as 1 element lost for each non-allied command;
- A city controlled by the enemy counts as 2 elements lost for each non-allied command if it was used without a camp or 1 element lost per command if used with a camp;
- Scythed Chariots, camp followers and denizens do not count as losses;
- All other elements count as 1 element lost.
Peter
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To win a game you need 2 demoralisated enemy commands. If you will use your living elements to destroy more enemy commandsyou can win...What do you want more..