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Post by dpd on Feb 22, 2024 18:20:34 GMT
This proposal is simple
As light camel (2cm) is treated as equivalent of light horse (2lh), create a new cavalry unit equivalent to heavy camelry (3cm).
Call it raider cavalry.
It would have all the characteristics of camelry except that it would treat all bad going (not just dunes and oases) as good going and would represent all cavalry types that could move through bad going at speed (Barbarian cavalry, Irish hobelars, Arab ghazis, Numidian light horse, Moorish light horse, Spanish jinetes, etc.) and whose primary function was ambush, raiding and plundering.
Would not get the double movement in good going that light horse has.
Represent with 3 figures with same basing as camelry.
Thoughts or comments?
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Post by menacussecundus on Feb 22, 2024 22:07:08 GMT
It is difficult to comment on this suggestion in isolation. Do the current LH types which would become raiders keep their QK against Kn and El? What are the combat factors for the new type and do they - or at least some of them - get rear support? Crucially, are they penalized in close combat in Bad Going? (I assume not.)
My initial reaction is that raiding and plundering are different from the set piece battles of DBA. I think too that the new raider cavalry, treating the battle field as a bowling green, would unbalance the game.
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Post by jim1973 on Feb 23, 2024 1:20:07 GMT
Perhaps, if we had some specific historical battle examples that illustrated how these troops are supposed to behave in a set piece battle then we would be able to provide more insight.
Jim
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Post by vodnik on Feb 23, 2024 9:00:21 GMT
...there are camels as 3cm but also as 2cm. But there are also mountet elements using horses as the majority. Raiders are a type from other rules meaning fast foot troops. No need to complicate simple rules...
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Post by dpd on Feb 23, 2024 13:18:40 GMT
Jim - that would include almost any battle fought with Arab Ghazis in the first Islamic Jihad against the Byzantines and Sassanians. Irish hobelars where a valued addition to many medieval armies, especially during the 100 years war and War of the Roses. Moorish light horse and Spanish jinetes fought across the Spanish Reconquista. Numidian cavalry was standard part of Carthaginian and Roman armies.
Macro question: DBA labels imply uniformity, but that was rarely the case. For example, elephant formations were almost always supported by accompanying light foot. Similarly, camelry units were also intermixed with light horse (Arab horses were the best in the world). So why not replace the camel designation with "raider"?
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Post by vodnik on Feb 23, 2024 16:59:01 GMT
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Post by menacussecundus on Feb 23, 2024 17:58:05 GMT
Jim - that would include almost any battle fought with Arab Ghazis in the first Islamic Jihad against the Byzantines and Sassanians. Irish hobelars where a valued addition to many medieval armies, especially during the 100 years war and War of the Roses. Moorish light horse and Spanish jinetes fought across the Spanish Reconquista. Numidian cavalry was standard part of Carthaginian and Roman armies. Macro question: DBA labels imply uniformity, but that was rarely the case. For example, elephant formations were almost always supported by accompanying light foot. Similarly, camelry units were also intermixed with light horse (Arab horses were the best in the world). So why not replace the camel designation with "raider"? Again, I think you are leaving out some of the detail dpd . How did the Ghazis fight when it came to set piece battles against the Byzntines and Sassanians? Successfully, obviously, but were they charging through the dunes/steep hills/thick forests in battle? Were hobelars really that widespread outside of Britain? And were they not largely replaced by mounted archers (Mtd-Bw in DBA)? Did the Moorish light horse and Spanish jinetes charge hell for leather through the mountains of Spain or did they stay mainly on the plain? Did the Numidian cavalry speed through the Alps and then sit and wait for the elephants to catch up or did they have the same difficulty as the rest of Hannibal's army? Similarly, I'm not quite sure what you are driving at with your macro question. Is it simply a change of name, so that 3 camel figures on a base are called "R", rather than Cm? Are you suggesting a mix of camel and horse figures on a base? (Which wouldn't. of course, require a change of name.) In short, what is it that you are trying to achieve? |
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Post by Les1964 on Feb 23, 2024 19:32:11 GMT
In short, what is it that you are trying to achieve Over complicate something that is meant to be a quick play wargame .  |
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Post by dpd on Feb 26, 2024 13:18:46 GMT
Just thinking in terms of consistency and completeness.
We have a horse mounted version of pike and spear - the knight.
We have a horse mounted version of blades - cavalry
We have a horse mounted version of psiloi - light horse.
We need a horse mounted version of auxilia and warband having their abilities to move through bad going - raider.
It's also historically accurate as ghazis, hobelars, etc. were famous for moving through and striking from areas of rough terrain (deserts, mountains, bogs, forests, etc.)
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Post by menacussecundus on Feb 26, 2024 14:57:05 GMT
Just thinking in terms of consistency and completeness. We have a horse mounted version of pike and spear - the knight. We have a horse mounted version of blades - cavalry We have a horse mounted version of psiloi - light horse. We need a horse mounted version of auxilia and warband having their abilities to move through bad going - raider. It's also historically accurate as ghazis, hobelars, etc. were famous for moving through and striking from areas of rough terrain (deserts, mountains, bogs, forests, etc.) But did they move through them and then fight set piece battles elsewhere or did they fight in those areas? And, if the latter, was the battle field entirely desert, mountain, bog or forest - and therefore not a typical DBA board - or was it essentially good going with small patches of difficult stuff? |
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Post by Spitzicles on Feb 26, 2024 21:59:41 GMT
We need a horse mounted version of auxilia and warband having their abilities to move through bad going - raider. I'm not sure "we need" any such thing. But hey, house rules - in your house you can tack on any rule you like. |
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pteros
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Post by pteros on Mar 1, 2024 21:38:17 GMT
I’ve considered doing something similar for the house ruled version of DBA I’m using as the mass combat system in my D&D campaign.
Instead of 4 types of cavalry (4kn, 3kn, 3cv, 2LH), have 6. All are somewhat mount-agnostic and each of these types could include examples on chariots, camels, wargs, what have you.
Cataphracts (4Kn), as per DBA. Heavily armored close order mounted that fight on line.
Knights (3Kn), again as per DBA. Heavily armored mounted that rely on shock charges with the lance.
Cavalry (3Cv), stats as in DBA, representing the more superior type of mounted that can fight with bow, lance, or sword.
Mounted Shooters (horse archers by any other name), +2 against foot, +3 against mounted, move as LH, +1 rear support. No distant shooting. Covers various sorts of horse nomad cultures and chariot archers like Egyptians.
Riders +3 against foot, +2 against mounted, move like Cv. These are mounted elements armed with sword and javelin that are adept at scouting and riding down unprepared infantry like Wb but not at mounted combat. This would cover Greek and barbarian cavalry along with inferior medieval types, probably a good fit for LCh that didn’t otherwise carry bowmen.
Light Mounted. As LH but without rear support, but they get the house rule of not conforming like Ps. Think of them as Ps on horses. LH that weren’t capable of disciplined shooting along with mounted intended to harass and skirmish like Plains Indians.
I’ve considered going to half BW movement so I can make more granular distinctions between how fast riders move, but for now I’m mostly interested in how the combat factors work. Im not sure if different combat results might represent how they fight better
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