Reshuffling unit types and the "Bamboo Freight Train"

dpd
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Reshuffling unit types and the "Bamboo Freight Train" Oct 2, 2023 20:47:05 GMT

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Post by dpd on Oct 2, 2023 20:47:05 GMT

Following up to Snowcat's thread where he makes a strong case against the very existence of fast pike (3pk):

"What's wrong with Fast Pike? It seems to be a contradiction in terms, a class of fast moving men wielding pikes (or very long spears) in formations that can be as deep as a Macedonian phalanx. And it gets used to represent troops that did not fight that deeply."

And his solution:

"Is it representing fast nimble troops with long spears but little or no shields, fighting in non-deep formations? If yes, then Ax(X) (see below). If no, then treat as either Sp, 4Pk or 7Hd."

I find his reasoning flawless and his argument air tight for I too hate the concept of oxymoronic fast pike.

But why stop there?

There are lots of unit types that make no sense or are frankly ahistorical.

Start with the assumption that there is no such thing as a fast version of a heavy unit of any kind, and no solid version of a light unit of any kind.

So ignoring double-base units for now:

Spear would consist of 4sp, 4wb and 4ax
- 4wb forming a shield wall is exactly what a spear unit does.
- 4ax is sturdy enough to be a better spear unit than the 3sp used in several versions of the rules.

Pike would consist of 4pk only

Blade would consist of 4bd only

Hordes would consist of 7hd only (hordes by definition are massive and slow).

Auxilia would consist of 3sp and 3pk (per Snowcat)
- 3sp being a loose formation spear unit
- 3pk being a loose formation pike unit

Warband would consist of 3wb, 3bd, and 5wb
- 3wb are by their very nature fast units able to negotiate difficult mountains and forests.
- 3bd would be a warband especially when its two best examples are Vikings raiders and Dacian falxmen
- 5hd was originally a 5wb and a mob acts like a warband

Psiloi would consist of 2ps, 3ax, 3bw
- 2ps being mostly slingers
- 3ax being javelin hurling skirmishers
- 3bw being skirmishers armed with bows (neither stands and fights when attacked)

Bow would consist of 4bw only (along with 8bw mixed spear and bow)

Mounted units stay the same except for my suggestion that 3kn be equated with 3cm as 4kn = hch, 3cv = lch and 2lh = 2cm.

Thoughts or comments?

Last Edit: Oct 2, 2023 21:54:48 GMT by dpd

menacussecundus
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Reshuffling unit types and the "Bamboo Freight Train" Oct 4, 2023 7:54:56 GMT vodnik likes this

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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 4, 2023 7:54:56 GMT

I'm currently painting a Numidian army: two elements of Fast Wb; up to 9 elements of Fast Bw, including the General; and up to 9 elements of Ps. Adopting this suggestion would have saved me both time and money and left me with an army of two Wb and ten Ps, including a Ps General. (Frankly, I doubt I'd have bothered.)

But away from such special pleading, let's look at a mainstream army like the Early Imperial Romans. Is making a quarter - or even a third - the troops Spear a better reflection of how they operated or is it "frankly ahistorical"? Or try the Thracians, which can have up to nine 4Ax. Any historical accounts of them forming a shield-wall? Or the Gauls? (Up to ten 4Wb.)

It's a superficially neat and tidy solution to an invented "problem", but the consequences do not appear to have been thought through.

Last Edit: Oct 4, 2023 8:41:33 GMT by menacussecundus

dpd
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Reshuffling unit types and the "Bamboo Freight Train" Oct 4, 2023 12:24:36 GMT

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Post by dpd on Oct 4, 2023 12:24:36 GMT

From the rules' unit definitions for Warband: "Those that kept a shield wall in adversity and fought it out toe-to-toe (4Wb) are classed as “Solid”.

Forming a shield wall is what spear do whether they are Spartan hoplites or Saxon fyrd.

As for Auxilia: "Those that acquired regular discipline (4Ax) such as Hellenistic thureophoroi and Imperial Roman auxilia were an ideal counter to Warband and are classed as “Solid”."

The thureophoroi were so regular and disciplined that they were mistaken for "imitation legions" by Roman observers. And as shown in the Battle of Mons Graupius, Roman auxilia could and did take the lead as hard hitting spearmen armed primarily with lancea thrusting spear.

In fact you can make the case the the 1,000 man legions of the Late Roman Empire were just cheap (but not less effective) replacements of the old cohort legions by auxilia - given their organization and unit size, long spatha slashing sword instead of the gladius short stabbing sword, oval shield replacing the rectangular scutum, chain main replacing lorica segmentata armor, and lancea thrusting spear replacing the pilum throwing spear. The late Roman legions were essentially identical to the auxilia milliaria cohortes of the middle empire. IMHO Diocletian merely raised 1,000 man auxilia units to the status of legions and let the old legions dissolve into the new smaller legions based on the use of vexillations.

But I digress.

The bottom line is that both fast heavy units (3sp, 3pk, 3bd, 5hd) and solid light units (4ax, 4wb) are physically oxymoronic.

P.S. And yes, if a 2cm is a desert version of a 2lh, then a 3cm should be a desert version of a 3kn (the rules having equated 4kn to hch and 3cv to lch)

Last Edit: Oct 4, 2023 12:32:54 GMT by dpd

dpd
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Reshuffling unit types and the "Bamboo Freight Train" Oct 4, 2023 12:50:58 GMT

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Post by dpd on Oct 4, 2023 12:50:58 GMT

P.P.S. As for the doubled units, either those designated in the army lists (6Kn/6Cv/6Bd/8Sp/8Bw), or those that can be deployed at the player's discretion (8pk/6wb/4lh):

8sp remain spear

8pk remain pike

8bw remain (pavise) bow

4lh remain light horse

6kn remain knight (also with a camel equivalent)

6cv remain cavalry

But...

6wb and 6bd get grouped with 7hd to form a unit type representing all those units armed with two handed blade weapons: battle axes, halberds and similar, along with the hordes of peasants armed with two handed modified farming implements (bill, scythes, flails, etc.)

Last Edit: Oct 4, 2023 12:52:01 GMT by dpd

menacussecundus
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Reshuffling unit types and the "Bamboo Freight Train" Oct 4, 2023 16:16:16 GMT martin likes this

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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 4, 2023 16:16:16 GMT

Oct 4, 2023 12:24:36 GMT dpd said:

From the rules' unit definitions for Warband: "Those that kept a shield wall in adversity and fought it out toe-to-toe (4Wb) are classed as “Solid”.

Forming a shield wall is what spear do whether they are Spartan hoplites or Saxon fyrd.

As for Auxilia: "Those that acquired regular discipline (4Ax) such as Hellenistic thureophoroi and Imperial Roman auxilia were an ideal counter to Warband and are classed as “Solid”."

The thureophoroi were so regular and disciplined that they were mistaken for "imitation legions" by Roman observers. And as shown in the Battle of Mons Graupius, Roman auxilia could and did take the lead as hard hitting spearmen armed primarily with lancea thrusting spear.

In fact you can make the case the the 1,000 man legions of the Late Roman Empire were just cheap (but not less effective) replacements of the old cohort legions by auxilia - given their organization and unit size, long spatha slashing sword instead of the gladius short stabbing sword, oval shield replacing the rectangular scutum, chain main replacing lorica segmentata armor, and lancea thrusting spear replacing the pilum throwing spear. The late Roman legions were essentially identical to the auxilia milliaria cohortes of the middle empire. IMHO Diocletian merely raised 1,000 man auxilia units to the status of legions and let the old legions dissolve into the new smaller legions based on the use of vexillations.

But I digress.

The bottom line is that both fast heavy units (3sp, 3pk, 3bd, 5hd) and solid light units (4ax, 4wb) are physically oxymoronic.

P.S. And yes, if a 2cm is a desert version of a 2lh, then a 3cm should be a desert version of a 3kn (the rules having equated 4kn to hch and 3cv to lch)

Strangely enough, Mons Grapius was precisely what I had in mind when I made my earlier comment.

I still consider it would be ahistorical to treat the Roman Auxilia as if they were Spartan hoplites and to equate the lancea - like the pilum, primarily a throwing weapon - with the longer and heavier spears of the Greek hoplites and the Saxon fyrd. And the same goes for Thracian 4Ax, possibly even more so.

PS The rules don't "equate" 4Kn to HCh. Both count as Knights, but then so do 3Kn and 6 Kn. In terms of how they play, 3Kn have more in common with HCh than 4Kn do. If you insist on pairing the troop types and having them march two by two, then 3Kn = HCh is a better fit; and if LCm is a desert terrain version of LH, it would make more sense for Cm to be a desert version of 3Cv rather than 3Kn.

PPS If you think something being both fast and heavy is an oxymoron, you presumably haven't been watching the Rugby World Cup. But you are the one who has added the descriptions "heavy" and "light", so the oxymorons are your own doing. The supposed "pairing" of mounted troop types is, likewise, your own invention.

Last Edit: Oct 4, 2023 16:32:28 GMT by menacussecundus