|
|
Post by dpd on Jul 13, 2023 15:11:59 GMT
DBA defines fast pike (3pk) as: They are all classed as “Solid”, except for hillmen with long spears used in both hands and mostly lacking shields (3Pk), such as Hittites, Koreans or North Welsh which are classed as “Fast”.
But the above definition is a perfect description of medieval/renaissance pike (Scottish schiltron, Swiss pike, Landsknecht mercenaries, etc.) including their greater speed, hill/mountain origins of this troop type, and lack of shields.
So why aren't medieval/renaissance pike classified as 3pk?
They did fight differently than their ancient counterparts, being faster and more aggressive, capable of winning battles on their own, forming squares for all around protection, etc. - and thus deserving their own unit type.
Unlike fast pike, DBA does not include a matching category of fast spear (3sp - except for DBA 2.2 with its "light spear" unit, which oddly does not have a 3pk designation).
Many troop types could be reasonably designated as fast spear (typical bronze age foot, hill tribes from Scotland to Anatolia, Islamic foot, city and peasant militia, Saxon fyrd, etc.)
So why does spear remains the only DBA foot type without a fast version?
You'd think that it would do so if only for consistency's sake.
|
|
|
|
Post by vodnik on Jul 13, 2023 21:59:19 GMT
...the rules are among other things a development. Not only DBA but also DBM(M) but also the failed DBR. That's why there are no Renaissance pikes in DBA. There are also 8Bw. Just not at DBA but in Art de la Guerre. I personally use DBA22. There are reasons for this that I need not repeat here. There is still ADG or the more considered Triumph, but now it is also overloaded like DBA3...
|
|
|
|
Post by timurilank on Jul 13, 2023 22:09:27 GMT
DBA defines fast pike (3pk) as: They are all classed as “Solid”, except for hillmen with long spears used in both hands and mostly lacking shields (3Pk), such as Hittites, Koreans or North Welsh which are classed as “Fast”. But the above definition is a perfect description of medieval/renaissance pike (Scottish schiltron, Swiss pike, Landsknecht mercenaries, etc.) including their greater speed, hill/mountain origins of this troop type, and lack of shields. So why aren't medieval/renaissance pike classified as 3pk? They did fight differently than their ancient counterparts, being faster and more aggressive, capable of winning battles on their own, forming squares for all around protection, etc. - and thus deserving their own unit type. Unlike fast pike, DBA does not include a matching category of fast spear (3sp - except for DBA 2.2 with its "light spear" unit, which oddly does not have a 3pk designation). Many troop types could be reasonably designated as fast spear (typical bronze age foot, hill tribes from Scotland to Anatolia, Islamic foot, city and peasant militia, Saxon fyrd, etc.) So why does spear remains the only DBA foot type without a fast version? You'd think that it would do so if only for consistency's sake. , Swiss and their imitators tended to avoid terrain which disrupted their formation, all of which is described in manuals of the period. Presumably, the Swiss movement through woods and over hills made use of earthen tracks which are roads in DBA. Late medieval Portuguese and Spanish are also classed 3Pk. However, the Spanish in Italy found it expedient to hire German or Swiss pike than to field their own as they are of better quality. The French followed a similar course, their pikemen (7Hd) proved sub-standard. Pike columns are extremely effective when supported by handgunners (Ps) or swordsmen (3Bd). |
|
|
|
Post by errico on Sept 11, 2023 11:49:48 GMT
Hi all! How to classify almughavars? Auxilia is too reductive and solid does not reflect their speed of maneuver. what do you think?
|
|
|
|
Post by gregorius on Sept 11, 2023 23:17:11 GMT
Hi all! How to classify almughavars? Auxilia is too reductive and solid does not reflect their speed of maneuver. what do you think? At the very minimum they should be graded as fast Ax. On the other hand, I think that there's an argument for 3Bd. Cheers, |
|
|
|
Post by medievalthomas on Sept 20, 2023 18:03:11 GMT
Yes we should have added Fast Spear to DBA 3.0. As they would have covered the Welsh nicely and many others. We will add them to DBF so this problem will be fixed (they are already in D3H2 so you can use them now if you don't have a playtest copy of DBF).
We no longer use figure count though to denote troop types so you don't need to worry about changing.
The best way to do Fast/Solid at least in 25+mm is to put Solid on 20mm deep bases and Fast on 30mm base (which also coincides with their MA).
Pike need work. DBF will help a bit.
TomT
|
|
|
|
Post by dpd on Sept 20, 2023 18:17:42 GMT
MT,
Sounds great.
Now that you are on a roll....
How about differentiating between sword blade (Roman legions) and axe blades (Saxon huscarls)? - expanding the number of troops designated as 6bd (so not just the Swiss halberdiers
How about differentiating between javelin cavalry (Roman Equites) and bow cavalry (Byzantine kataphractoi)? - by creating a 4cv troop for javelin cavalry.
How about differentiating between javelin light horse (Irish hobelars) bow light horse (Mongol horse archers)? - by creating a 3lh for javelin light horse?
How about differentiating between African and Indian elephants, African being fast and Indian being solid?
How about simply combining CP, Lit and CWg into one unit "Command", and redesignating them along with Art and WWg not as foot units but as a third category, "Trains"?
|
|
|
|
Post by dpd on Sept 20, 2023 18:19:54 GMT
DBF = De Bellis Fantasticus? New edition?
|
|
|
|
Post by paulisper on Sept 20, 2023 22:03:18 GMT
DBF = De Bellis Fantasticus? New edition? De Bellis Fantasiae… see the announcement elsewhere on Fanaticus P |
|
|
|
Post by medievalthomas on Oct 26, 2023 21:17:46 GMT
MT, Sounds great. Now that you are on a roll.... How about differentiating between sword blade (Roman legions) and axe blades (Saxon huscarls)? - expanding the number of troops designated as 6bd (so not just the Swiss halberdiers How about differentiating between javelin cavalry (Roman Equites) and bow cavalry (Byzantine kataphractoi)? - by creating a 4cv troop for javelin cavalry. How about differentiating between javelin light horse (Irish hobelars) bow light horse (Mongol horse archers)? - by creating a 3lh for javelin light horse? How about differentiating between African and Indian elephants, African being fast and Indian being solid? How about simply combining CP, Lit and CWg into one unit "Command", and redesignating them along with Art and WWg not as foot units but as a third category, "Trains"? We do a lot of this in the concept game but I think its too much for one jump. So we will get some nuance added in DBF. Train (your suggestion is a good one) it has been suggested but again bear in mind the more conserver members of the player base. Lets make a little progress at a time (someone here is still extolling 2.2). In the Concept Game we distinguish between "light lances" Cav that has Shock v. all but Heavy Foot and Bow armed Cav that gain Evade v. (Destroy becomes Flee) against all slower opponents. But that's going to far for now. But we are adding Lethal Mongols (+1 on a winning score) which I just used this weekend in playtest (and victory v. Mythic Samurai). Also you can make any troop type Fast or Solid so you can differentiate similar types a bit (used lots of Fast Light Mounted and Cav). TomT TomT |
|
|
|
Post by skb777 on Oct 27, 2023 9:08:29 GMT
I know people who still play v2 and are happy with that don’t understand why they need to keep changing them.
|
|
|
|
Post by ilprincipe on Nov 18, 2023 22:40:43 GMT
MT, Sounds great. Now that you are on a roll.... How about differentiating between sword blade (Roman legions) and axe blades (Saxon huscarls)? - expanding the number of troops designated as 6bd (so not just the Swiss halberdiers How about differentiating between javelin cavalry (Roman Equites) and bow cavalry (Byzantine kataphractoi)? - by creating a 4cv troop for javelin cavalry. How about differentiating between javelin light horse (Irish hobelars) bow light horse (Mongol horse archers)? - by creating a 3lh for javelin light horse? How about differentiating between African and Indian elephants, African being fast and Indian being solid? How about simply combining CP, Lit and CWg into one unit "Command", and redesignating them along with Art and WWg not as foot units but as a third category, "Trains"? A pretty good idea, to create a third category. HFG has Mounted, Foot and "Other". Regards, Chris |
|
|
|
Post by errico on Jan 3, 2024 9:50:16 GMT
My group in Salerno is using the following factors and modifications:
4Ax 4-3 -1vs Ps
LH 3-4 no quik kill vs Kn and no rear support
Pk 4-4 and are double base of 8 figs, rear support +2/+1
Janissaries as 8Bw double base
the 4Ax Samnite and Almughavares are 3Bd
So after several games everithing seems more balanced.
|
|
|
|
Post by errico on Mar 3, 2024 10:41:42 GMT
My group in Salerno is using the following factors and modifications: 4Ax 4-3 -1vs Ps LH 2-3 no quik kill vs Kn and no rear support Pk 4-4 and are double base of 8 figs, rear support +2/+1 Janissaries as 8Bw double base the 4Ax Samnite and Almughavares are 3Bd So after several games everithing seems more balanced. |
|
