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Post by dpd on Jun 27, 2023 15:22:02 GMT
Going through some old rules (1.0, 2.2, DBM) where you can track the transformation of the old 5wb unit to a 5hd "fast horde" (rioters, religious fanatics, etc.).
5hd plus the "solid horde" 7hd are easy enough to understand what they are supposed to represent.
The "fast warband" 3wb and "solid warband" 4wb are also in keeping with the game's standard unit designations.
Deep warbands are represented by double based 3wb units (aka 6wb).
But what the heck was an old 5wb supposed to represent?
And how did they differ in combat and movement from the 3wb, 4wb and 6wb?
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Post by leberechtreinhold on Jun 27, 2023 17:46:04 GMT
Well I would say you mostly said it. Sometimes religious fanatics are combat proficient enough to be worth considering as Wb instead of Hd. IMHO, the canonical example the early Sengoku Japanese (post-mongol). The DBA2 had the Wb option clearly as standing for Ikko and their belligerent monks, which were quite problematic. They could overrun a more hardened troop (Bd) and destroy everything.
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Post by macbeth on Jun 28, 2023 6:00:42 GMT
As I understand it
Horde was first introduced in Hordes of the Things and then transcribed across to DBM - there was no Hd in DBA1
In DBM Hd were subdivided into the standard categories S (superior), O (ordinary), F (Fast), I (Inferior) - I don't know is Hd(X) existed or not (I never got into DBA)
With DBA2 the lists were brought into line with DBM and so Hd crept into the lists - but without the category distinctions there were a couple of changes
Ax(X) - exception Auxilia which were Ax that traditionally fought with a long spear but no missile weapons became 3Sp
Hd(S) and Hd(F) which represented religious fanatics were reclassified as 5Wb and received all the advantages of Wb
Come DBA3 the classification of Fast and Solid was applied to DBA and at the same time 5Hd was once again classified as Hd and 3Sp became 3Pk
Cheers
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Post by dpd on Jun 28, 2023 12:36:37 GMT
Why bother with a troop category that has appeared only once or twice in the history of warfare (urban unrest not counting as actual battles)?
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Post by kaiphranos on Jun 28, 2023 15:37:25 GMT
I'm still perplexed that the Swiss have an utterly unique troop type...
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Post by menacussecundus on Jun 28, 2023 18:17:38 GMT
Bring on the "dust throwing women"!
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Post by martin on Jun 28, 2023 18:21:56 GMT
Why bother with a troop category that has appeared only once or twice in the history of warfare (urban unrest not counting as actual battles)? As 5Hd it now appears quite a few times in the lists, from memory - Aztec, Low Countries , Scots Isles and Highlands, Ptolemaic d list, Libyan a list…so the list writers found it useful…but what do THEY know, eh?? 🙃 |
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Post by dpd on Jun 29, 2023 12:14:56 GMT
"As 5Hd it now appears quite a few times in the lists"
Anyone of which would just as easily be a warband.
Which is what they were originally.
So was a 5wb supposed to be "fast" unit?
"Solid"?
"Deep" like a 6bd (Swiss), 6cv, 6kn?
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Post by martin on Jun 29, 2023 14:30:40 GMT
"As 5Hd it now appears quite a few times in the lists" Anyone of which would just as easily be a warband. Which is what they were originally. So was a 5wb supposed to be "fast" unit? "Solid"? "Deep" like a 6bd (Swiss), 6cv, 6kn? There were no ‘solid’ or ‘fast’ at that time - warband were warband, full stop. As it was part of a now very-little-used version of the rules, I’m somewhat surprised that you’re so interested in it…what’s the attraction? |
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Post by stevie on Jun 29, 2023 14:39:19 GMT
Let us assume for a moment that 5Hd did not exist in DBA 3.0… …we would have to invent it, or at least something similar. 7Hd are unenthusiastic peasants with no helmets, no shields, no armour, improvised weapons, and no military training, who don’t want to be there. 5Hd represents more enthusiastic peasants (such as rioters and religious fanatics) who DO want to be there, but also have no helmets, no shields, no armour, improvised weapons, and no military training. Wb represents fierce fearless warriors with shields, proper weapons, sometimes with helmets and armour, who have great individual fighting skills, and could even break through and defeat Roman Legionaries on occasion…something that mere rioters and religious fanatics were unlikely to do. Treating 5Hd as Wb is like saying that WWII Shermans were the same as Tigers… …after all, they were both tanks.  As for the old 5Wb, they were just a clumsy attempt to represent enthusiastic Hordes. DBA 3.0 has evolved, improved, and become more refined since the crude early days. |
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Post by lkmjbc on Jun 30, 2023 1:51:54 GMT
I am not sure I understand this thread.
5Wb was a way to use the Hordes(Fast) element in DBA2. Phil evidently thought it best classified as Warband as DBA2 had neither Fast nor Solid designations.
The element in DBM was represented with 5 figures if my memory serves me correctly. Phil wanted to maintain some level of compatibility between the rule sets and their armies.
I never remember a 6Wb ever used. It didn't play all versions of DBM, so I might have missed 6Wb.
They differed in combat in that Horde used the Horde rules and Warband used the Warband rules.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the issue?
Joe Collins
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Post by vodnik on Jun 30, 2023 6:50:00 GMT
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Post by dpd on Jul 1, 2023 12:38:37 GMT
"I never remember a 6Wb ever used."
Shorthand for double based 3wb.
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