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Post by carll on Jun 25, 2023 18:31:29 GMT
OK Help please!!??
I am wanting to build DBA Portuguese & Spanish forces for early colonial wars in Africa, like the Spanish actions in Morocco and Portuguese activity on River Senegal and River Niger..
Unfortunately DBA list IV / 68, Medieval Spanish & Portuguese 1340-1515AD excludes these colonial forces.
I realise I may be straying into 'DBR' territory but feel the DBA version 3 rules should cover these early colonial forays.
Are there any lists here or elsewhere that you can recommend?
CarlL
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Post by ammianus on Jun 25, 2023 19:00:31 GMT
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crist%C3%B3v%C3%A3o_da_GamaCristóvão da Gama (c. 1516 – 29 August 1542), anglicised as Christopher da Gama, was a Portuguese military commander who led a Portuguese army of 400 musketeers on a crusade in Ethiopia (1541–1543) against the Adal Muslim army of Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi (also known as Ahmad Geragn). He, along with the allied Ethiopian army, was victorious
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Post by carll on Jun 25, 2023 19:03:49 GMT
Cheers Ammianus. CarlL
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Post by carll on Jun 25, 2023 19:40:33 GMT
I have a copy of 2nd edition of "Irregular Wars" which has many similarities to DBA. This rule set has a Colonial Spanish and Colonial Portuguese forces. The Spanish list has Hidalgos, (colonial nobility), as the stronger elements possibly men at arms, (3Kn) or (3Bd); with 'armed mobs' from civilian colonists, so possibly (5Hd) or (7Hd) with improvised weapons. These could be 2 and 3 of the 12 element force. Their list allows for creation (or hire of mercenary) militias of pikes and shot but probably a maximum of 2x (3Pk) or (4Pk) with 1x handgunners / arquebusiers, possibly 2Ps. [Possibly an element of crossbows replacing or in addition to the handgunners?] Their list also includes gunpowder artillery, so at least 1x (element) of (Art). This would give 9 elements, with other elements drawn from 'local' allies or mercenaries like Berbers in north Africa (lie the Islamic Berber list) or local warriors in West Africa (like the West Sudanese army list). The Portuguese list notes reliance on armed slaves and colonial adventurers who would capture and enslave local populations as slave soldiers. Their list suggests small presence of European nobles and adventurers, 'Fidalgos' and 'Bandeirantes' so possibly 1x (3Kn/4Bd) and 1x (3Bd). The slave troops could be (5Hd) or (7Hd) or possibly (Sp) or (3Pk). There might be as many as 6 elements from these last types; with nearly as many armed with handguns / arquebus (Ps) or crossbows (4Cb/Ps) or local native troops like archers in West Africa (Ps or 3Bw or 4Bw).
All 'hypothetical' as not based on any one raid just on reading the Irregular wars rules army lists.
CarlL
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Post by timurilank on Jun 26, 2023 13:23:21 GMT
OK Help please!!?? I am wanting to build DBA Portuguese & Spanish forces for early colonial wars in Africa, like the Spanish actions in Morocco and Portuguese activity on River Senegal and River Niger.. Unfortunately DBA list IV / 68, Medieval Spanish & Portuguese 1340-1515AD excludes these colonial forces. I realise I may be straying into 'DBR' territory but feel the DBA version 3 rules should cover these early colonial forays. Are there any lists here or elsewhere that you can recommend? CarlL CarlL, Iberians and Southeast Asians at War: the Violent First Encounter at Melaka in 1511 and After by Michael W. Charney. Not Africa, but overseas enterprises may have followed similar patterns of investment; number of ships chartered, size of force, etc. Highly recommended. Warfare in Atlantic Africa, 1500 – 1800 by John K. Thornton Both may still be available online.
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Post by carll on Jun 26, 2023 17:24:52 GMT
Man thanks Timurilank. CarlL
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Post by carll on Jul 1, 2023 20:30:27 GMT
I was delighted to stumble into Tony Aguilar's work (from 2009) on DBA-RRR (Renaissance, Reformation, Restoration) and his army lists for Spanish Colonial 1524-1534 and Portuguese Colonial (j) others, 1521-1550; from our DBA Fanaticus [on tab] DB - Pike and Shot, [under subtab] newest versions of DBA-RRR. !!! I have found his army lists at gamingenglishcivilwar.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/dba-rrr-army-lists-v-1-21.pdf but not his full rules or QRS so if you know of a source (other than the Facebook page Tony listed on Fanaticus DBA in Dec 2018, then I would be grateful to hear about it. CarlL
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Post by carll on Jul 1, 2023 21:39:28 GMT
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Post by martin on Jul 2, 2023 6:39:06 GMT
Thanks Carl. Just had a look…I think the colour coded QRS must be their own - not seen that one before…. Also nb that QRS has some factors in the combat tables which differ from v2.2 and v3, so maybe there’s some ‘local house rules’ in play here (see camels and El).
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Post by carll on Jul 3, 2023 18:50:32 GMT
Cheers Martin. CarlL
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Post by carll on Jul 3, 2023 18:56:29 GMT
Well it looks like I have been following a mistaken line of thinking... and its not DBA-AAA nor DBR I should looking too but to DBA and late medieval history of Portugal's explorations along Africa coastline ....
Borrowing my wife's copy of Penrose's 'Travel and Discovery in the Renaissance' (from 1967 so old), I keenly read through the chapters on 'Henry the Navigator and the African Voyages' and 'The Portuguese in the Orient'. Taking some notes as I went along starting in 1415 with Portuguese taking Cueta, in Morocco, then ending my notes with exploits of Francisco de Almeida and Alfonso de Albuquerque in 1503 / 1510 period. Then I went to George Gush's 'Renaissance Armies'(second edition, from 1982) to look at 'uniform' (clothing) styles. Of course Gush covered period 1480 to 1650 so misses most of my 15th century interest. And of course the Portuguese are not covered!! So I looked at Spanish but thought they are probably 'too late' in some / many aspects of their appearance. So I went to Ian Heath's 'Armies of the Middle Ages [AME], volume 1' (covering the period 1300 to 1487) so more in keeping with the period I am researching. Again Heath didn't cover the Portuguese, but does cover near neighbours the Spanish.
Looks like I should be thinking late medieval Portuguese sailors / soldiers for their appearance in their exploits mapping the coastline of Africa in their search for an 'eastern' sea passage to Asia and access to the spice trade, on the way becoming involved in other trading in ivory, gold, pepper and slaves (taken back to Portugal before the days of the Atlantic trade in people that led to Portuguese taking people as slave labour to plantations in Brazil, which the Portuguese didn't occupy till after 1500). Previously it appeared that the Portuguese had begun taking slaves as soldiers in Africa in early voyages, but my preliminary reading about 1400s didn't cite any examples, although Penrose noted the Portuguese use of 'sepoy' soldiers in India in battles fought to defend their ally the (Hindu) Rajah of Cochin. (Ian Heath's volume 2, of AME, does cover the Hindu soldiers of this period!! See illustrations 34, 35, 38.)
So it looks like my interest in the Portuguese adventurers of the 1400s fits within our DBA rule set, so its time for me to think late medieval rather than early renaissance?!?! CarlL
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Post by timurilank on Jul 3, 2023 20:17:54 GMT
Well it looks like I have been following a mistaken line of thinking... and its not DBA-AAA nor DBR I should looking too but to DBA and late medieval history of Portugal's explorations along Africa coastline .... (snip) So it looks like my interest in the Portuguese adventurers of the 1400s fits within our DBA rule set, so its time for me to think late medieval rather than early renaissance?!?! CarlL The Portuguese and Islamic Berbers are a good match. Alfonso V (King of Portugal) was most active in Morocco.
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Post by timurilank on Jul 4, 2023 15:28:47 GMT
Interesting.
Checking Old Glory Renaissance lists at TimeCast UK, I note package quantities are now revised (24 foot and 9 mounted).
This is welcome news.
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Post by carll on Jul 5, 2023 10:31:01 GMT
Cheers x2 Timurilank. CarlL
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Post by carll on Jul 31, 2023 17:44:12 GMT
Well my Portuguese Colonial force is now complete. It was sparked off by an article in ‘Lone Warrior’ 221, by George Arnold, who was re-visiting and re-organising a solo campaign game (to generate battles) in the El Cid period of Spanish history. And I thought it would be interesting to create a simple DBA campaign of the Portuguese ‘buccaneers’ of the late 15th century (and possibly early 16th) who terrorised (in Viking style) coastal Africa and the Indian Ocean (and in process, by chance, discovered Brazil). But first I needed a DBA Portuguase colonial ‘army’, so I turned to unfinished (unused) late medieval and renaissance figures (from my lead mountain) and found a mix of suitable 25mm and 28mm figures to give me 12 elements (bases) of 3 figures each, half swordsmen (shield and buckler style) and half crossbowmen. Of course megalomania (lead style) took over and (with help of new purchases) it soon became a BIG DBA army of 24 bases of swordsmen and 12 of crossbowmen, then 12 bases of arquebusiers to replace (or reinforce) the crossbowmen. Next a few DBR style skirmisher bases were added from left over figures! Then the bug having bitten me I bought and converted (well only the hair styles) 24 swordsmen and 12 arquebusiers to make Swahili allies or possibly Gold Coast allies. (I have not yet found any references to Portuguese training them to fight in Portguese style nor to any ‘slave’ soldiers being trained by the Portuguese, but that’s a different story.) So I have arrayed my Portuguese for battle, sorry photo shoot, 4 ranks deep, 36 figures (or 12 bases) wide, with a few lurkers on the flanks in skirmish style; the ‘African’ allies are painted but bases still drying so they will have to wait for another photo shoot. At one figure = one real person this would probably be a fairly accurate mock up of their big landing parties that caused havoc all the way to India!! I recall only one invasion army being gathered to teach the ‘Moors’ of East Africa and India a lesson, and from memory, I think there were twelve ships, their crews and 1200 soldiers in all; a BIG army for Portuguese colonial adventures of this time (bar the failed conquest of Morocco). The flags or banners are courtesy of Freezywater Flags (now only trading through the Lance & Longbow Society, which I joined recently). Their journal, the ‘Hobilar’ has three excellent articles on the medieval Portuguese in Iberia (and the same plus other banners) in issue 32, all by Richard Sisson, but I am sad to say I cannot name the artist who created the beautiful banners). I have resized them to fit different banner-men in my array. Except for the ill fated Moroccan expedition, I don’t think the Portuguese king ever lead a force abroad. So my use of these flags is not historical albeit the flags are historically accurate, I believe. At this time I understand that few Portuguese retinues had uniforms, and that the colonial forces were often a mix of adventure (and fortune) seeking nobles, with some professional sailors from a number of countries, and often ‘ruffians’ for crew (in the manner of Wellesley describing his soldiers in the Peninsular campaign) all probably dressed individually in civilian style. I relied on Ian Heath and George Gush for inspiration with regard to possible colours and styles of dress for my Portuguese, (as ever in my own bright style of paint job). For the (not yet photographed) African allies, I added exaggerated Shona hairstyles, (because I couldn’t manipulate the milliput as finely as the Shona could tie their hair) as shown in John Laband’s ‘Bringers of War’ (photo 22). My previous West Sudanese may yet find themselves representing the Zimba of the interior of East Africa at some point when my campaign gets into action. CarlL
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