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Post by stevie on Jun 9, 2023 11:41:25 GMT
At the “Barn HoTT 23” tournament, a strange situation occurred. I brought a War Of The Worlds Jeff Wayne type Martian army:-  In one of the battles my three ‘copper coloured manta-ray Fighting Machine Magicians’ were in a line when the end one was flanked, turned-to-face, but was recoiled. Now I though it would be destroyed, since it had no room in which to recoil. But it seems I was wrong. Martin has kindly contacted Alan Saunders about this, and here is the conclusion:- “ A magician can recoil through any friends regardless of facing. So, yes, through both of the other elements.
I've seen one who was on the flank of an army recoil down the entire width of the army and end up on the other flank.
So there you have it - from the horse’s mouth (rule developer’s mouth, perhaps).
Your Mg should have recoiled and come out to the left of your left hand Mg, where there was room.”So something to remember folks…Magicians can pass through any friends, no matter the facing, even when recoiling. |
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Post by sheffmark on Jun 9, 2023 15:47:13 GMT
I agree with most of this, although I would query the following bit:
" I've seen one who was on the flank of an army recoil down the entire width of the army and end up on the other flank."
The last part of the PASSING OVER, UNDER OR THROUGH.... section on page 16 says:
"When an element's maximum tactical move is insufficient to clear the base of an element it is passing through, under or over, it cannot pass.
If you take it element by element then you could argue that the last element met would not have a frontage of 500 paces so the Magician could pass through.
On the other hand you could argue that that if there isn't a gap within 500 paces of the first element to be recoiled through, then the Magician can't clear it and therefore it can't pass.
If I were ruling on this I think I'd go with the later argument.
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Post by martin on Jun 9, 2023 16:32:23 GMT
I agree with most of this, although I would query the following bit: " I've seen one who was on the flank of an army recoil down the entire width of the army and end up on the other flank." The last part of the PASSING OVER, UNDER OR THROUGH.... section on page 16 says: "When an element's maximum tactical move is insufficient to clear the base of an element it is passing through, under or over, it cannot pass. If you take it element by element then you could argue that the last element met would not have a frontage of 500 paces so the Magician could pass through. On the other hand you could argue that that if there isn't a gap within 500 paces of the first element to be recoiled through, then the Magician can't clear it and therefore it can't pass. If I were ruling on this I think I'd go with the later argument. That reference is to ‘tactical move’, wot uses PIPs, and not to an outcome move (which does not). |
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Post by stevie on Jun 9, 2023 17:53:25 GMT
In addition to Martin’s last comment, the page 16 “Passing Over, Under Or Through” section says:-
“When an element’s outcome move is insufficient to clear the base of an element it is passing
through, under or over, it is placed in the first large enough unoccupied space beyond.
When an element’s maximum tactical move is insufficient to clear the base of an element it
is passing through, under or over, it cannot pass.”
…which pretty much clinches the debate.
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Post by ashimbabbar on Jun 10, 2023 3:21:27 GMT
On a side note, what were the other stands of your army ? ( I'm guessing the two low-laying arthropods are Beasts )
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Post by stevie on Jun 10, 2023 6:26:10 GMT
Since you asked Ashimbabbar, what you see is:- 4 x Tripods (Blades)…one of which is the leader, as Magician Generals are too vulnerable. 3 x ‘Fighting Machines’ (Magicians)…magic representing high tech meson beams. 2 x six-legged ‘Harvesters’ (Beasts)…to capture victims for blood extraction, and use in bad going. The stronghold is a metal cylinder in a crater, with red weed crawling, crawling… Blades are a bit slow to move, but I wanted the Tripods to be tough. Controversially I have them on 40mm deep bases, due to their size, but they still recoil the distances the HoTT rules say they should. Being 40mm deep, I could always have them as Beasts if I want speed, and to simulate them standing tall and striding over buildings and woods. The Tripods and Harvesters are from Pendraken Miniatures, with thick rods for legs, and the ‘Fighting Machines’ are converted plastic toy manta-rays… See also www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5H4yK_tiGI(Now this is a battle I really want to fight!  ) |
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Post by ashimbabbar on Jun 10, 2023 9:50:00 GMT
Thanks !
Interesting list ( and visually very arresting ) but to me it sounds a bit vulnerable to Paladins and Heroes
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Post by stevie on Jun 10, 2023 18:19:41 GMT
Ha!…have you been talking to Martin?… …coz that’s exactly what he used to devastate me! Come to think of it, about the only counter I can think of to defeat the Paladin + Hero combo are several Behemoths. But Behemoths have their own vulnerabilities, such as fleeing a lot from magic attacks and being unable to engage Aerial troops. And that’s the beauty of HoTT: there are no sure-fire winning armies. All are vulnerable to some other army, depending on compositions. At least three Magicians can make short work of Hero or Aerial armies (if you can get enough PIP’s to throw magic about that is). 
Anyway, the tradition enemies of the Martians is usually the U.S. Army... ...or the 1898 Victorian British Army with lots of Infantry Battalion Hordes... ...and they fare quite well against these particular opponents. (See the appendix at the back of →this |
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Post by ashimbabbar on Jun 10, 2023 23:37:34 GMT
Thanks for the crib sheet !
Indeed, the stone/paper/scissors is an essential part of HOTT - so there's a lot of suspense when you face an opponent's unknown army or a careful balancing when you manufacture paired lists.
3-Magicians armies are something I've given some thought to recently, which is why I was interested in yours - that and its look - plus I make it a point to know the army lists anyway.
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Post by sheffmark on Jun 11, 2023 8:21:34 GMT
I agree with most of this, although I would query the following bit: " I've seen one who was on the flank of an army recoil down the entire width of the army and end up on the other flank." The last part of the PASSING OVER, UNDER OR THROUGH.... section on page 16 says: "When an element's maximum tactical move is insufficient to clear the base of an element it is passing through, under or over, it cannot pass. If you take it element by element then you could argue that the last element met would not have a frontage of 500 paces so the Magician could pass through. On the other hand you could argue that that if there isn't a gap within 500 paces of the first element to be recoiled through, then the Magician can't clear it and therefore it can't pass. If I were ruling on this I think I'd go with the later argument. That reference is to ‘tactical move’, wot uses PIPs, and not to an outcome move (which does not). Yep, good point. So that also means you can't stop a God from recoiling by placing an enemy behind it. |
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Post by ashimbabbar on Jun 11, 2023 10:45:48 GMT
That reference is to ‘tactical move’, wot uses PIPs, and not to an outcome move (which does not). Yep, good point. So that also means you can't stop a God from recoiling by placing an enemy behind it. ? I was under the impression a God couldn't be recoiled. The Combat Outcomes table states this and that unit recoils (amid other fates) under such and such circumstances, but there is no mention of recoil for Gods
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Post by martin on Jun 11, 2023 10:54:58 GMT
Anything on the FLANK or REAR of a losing element recoils, so a god acting as a eg flank/door closing element would then recoil if the victim bounced his ‘main opponent’ off the front.
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Post by ashimbabbar on Jun 11, 2023 11:41:16 GMT
Oh !
Yes; I hadn't thought about that
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