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Post by snowcat on Sept 17, 2019 2:12:35 GMT
Has anyone played the game with victory requiring 6 points rather than 4 points? So basically 50% losses rather than 33% losses to achieve victory?
(I've always found the 4 point requirement a bit "light" for some reason...)
Just wondering if anyone's tried this. Sure it would lengthen the games - obviously - but are there benefits (such as an army really looking like it's defeated) that might make it worthwhile?
(Apologies if this should have been posted in the House Rules section...which I just discovered! Oops!)
Cheers
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Post by goragrad on Sept 17, 2019 3:03:44 GMT
Not to my knowledge, but D3H2, the the DBA 3/HOTT 2 hybrid uses the HOTT 50 percent victory/defeat criteria and there are players using them rather than plain jane DBA3 for historical battles.
Depending on who you game with, that seems to be something that would fit a 'house rule.'
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Post by snowcat on Sept 17, 2019 3:22:10 GMT
I guess the 50% vs 33% = more 'heroic' than 'historical' for army collapse morale. Not familiar with D3H2 - will check that out once I locate it.  Cheers |
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Post by goragrad on Sept 17, 2019 3:35:07 GMT
D3H2 was compiled and is available from medivalthomas. Here is a topic discussing obtaining it - fanaticus.boards.net/thread/9/d3h2And more importantly, from that discussion - "Send all requests for copies to: TomAndKate@aol.com and I will (eventually) get you a copy. That is a much quicker method then posting requests here (but post questions, reports, ideas etc. I do read them). Thomas J. Thomas Fame & Glory Games" |
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Post by stevie on Sept 17, 2019 9:00:30 GMT
Has anyone played the game with victory requiring 6 points rather than 4 points? So basically 50% losses rather than 33% losses to achieve victory? (I've always found the 4 point requirement a bit "light" for some reason...) Just wondering if anyone's tried this. Sure it would lengthen the games - obviously - but are there benefits (such as an army really looking like it's defeated) that might make it worthwhile? Ah, well now...sometimes having 4 element equivalents lost is more accurate. When during the 1st Diadochian War following Alexander’s death, Craterus and Eumenes fought a battle at the Hellespont in 321 BC. Craterus had far more heavy pikemen, but Eumanes had more mounted troops. So the latter kept his poor quality foot back in the centre and attacked with his mounted on the wings, killing Craterus and winning the battle... ...even though the foot of either side never even came into contact. (See penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/18B*.html#29 chapters 30 to 32)In DBA terms, Eumenes destroyed 3 mounted, one being the general. On the other hand, Hannibal ends up winning the battle of Cannae in 216 BC far too quickly. Destroy the Roman Cavalry on each wing (one being the general) and just one foot element (a Psiloi will do) and the battle is over before the Roman foot even becomes fully engaged! So sometimes losing 4 element equivalents is more realistic, and sometimes losing more is better. One solution to this paradox is to say that a Cavalry General (but not a Knight General) can be deployed with a foot element instead. This is the approach taken in the “Lessons from History” (which can be found here: fanaticus-dba.fandom.com/wiki/File:LESSONS_FROM_HISTORY.pdf )This covers both the Hellespont and Cannae, and creates more realistic historical outcomes. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by snowcat on Sept 17, 2019 11:29:14 GMT
D3H2 was compiled and is available from medivalthomas. Here is a topic discussing obtaining it - fanaticus.boards.net/thread/9/d3h2And more importantly, from that discussion - "Send all requests for copies to: TomAndKate@aol.com and I will (eventually) get you a copy. That is a much quicker method then posting requests here (but post questions, reports, ideas etc. I do read them). Thomas J. Thomas Fame & Glory Games" Many thanks for that. Will look into it.  |
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Post by snowcat on Sept 17, 2019 11:40:12 GMT
stevie - yes, good points. I think the bugbear for me is when I see 4 lost elements comprising troops that historically the ruler mightn't have even blinked at vs say, the knightly cream of the nobility or Caesar's favourite legion...etc. And IIRC DBMM created that more realistic element value system to show the effect of losing an element of Spartiates vs say an element of skirmishing javelinmen. Perhaps part of my suggestion for '6 points' to achieve victory was that such extremes of the spectrum would have a greater chance to even out than '4 points'. But even this is flawed and somewhat wishful thinking. (And yes, this should be in the House Rules section, so Mods: feel free to move it.) Cheers
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Post by Vic on Sept 17, 2019 12:17:29 GMT
I think there's an argument to be made that Psiloi and LH are overvalued in the victory conditions - these are weak elements in comparison to others for obvious reasons, but count as whole loses for victory purposes which doesn't invite to use them in their historical roles, as it's too risky and "costs" the same as losing a shiny Knights or Blades element.
At least for Psiloi there are some suggestions that have been floated - counting as 1/2 element, first Psiloi lost doesn't count, etc.
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Post by Les1964 on Sept 17, 2019 15:56:24 GMT
At least for Psiloi there are some suggestions that have been floated - counting as 1/2 element, first Psiloi lost doesn't count, etc. That's OK till you fight a list like this , Bk1/7a Early Libyan , Gen 3Ax , 6 x 5Hd , archers 2 x Ps , javelinmen 3 x Ps !  |
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Post by primuspilus on Sept 17, 2019 22:36:47 GMT
That's exactly the kind of list that the 1/2 element loss rating has in mind!
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Post by macbeth on Sept 17, 2019 22:50:10 GMT
Way back in the mists of last decade I ran a "DBA With A Twist" competition that used a variable breakpoint
Some elements were worth 1/2 a point - things like Ps and Hd (this was DBA2 when Hd still counted as part of the losses)
Most were worth 1 point
Some were worth 1 and 1/2 points (Kn/El)
At the end of any turn, each side that suffered a loss had to roll a die and score more than their cumulative loss points to keep fighting. If both sides suffered losses the phasing player had to dice first.
Cheers
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Post by sheffmark on Sept 18, 2019 7:55:23 GMT
At least for Psiloi there are some suggestions that have been floated - counting as 1/2 element, first Psiloi lost doesn't count, etc. That's OK till you fight a list like this , Bk1/7a Early Libyan , Gen 3Ax , 5 x 5Hd , archers 2 x Ps , javelinmen 3 x Ps ! Brilliant! So with Ps counting as 1/2 element lost and the first one not counting, that means you'd have to wipe out the whole army to win!! (It's actually 6 Hd not 5, otherwise you've only got 11 elements) (Hd don't count, 1st Ps doesn't count, leaving 4 Ps and 1 Ax Gen, 4 Ps killed = 2 points and gen = 2 Points) |
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Post by snowcat on Sept 18, 2019 8:16:56 GMT
Perhaps just "first x doesn't count" might be safer... |
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Post by martin on Sept 18, 2019 8:19:47 GMT
That's OK till you fight a list like this , Bk1/7a Early Libyan , Gen 3Ax , 5 x 5Hd , archers 2 x Ps , javelinmen 3 x Ps ! Brilliant! So with Ps counting as 1/2 element lost and the first one not counting, that means you'd have to wipe out the whole army to win!! (It's actually 6 Hd not 5, otherwise you've only got 11 elements) (Hd don't count, 1st Ps doesn't count, leaving 4 Ps and 1 Ax Gen, 4 Ps killed = 2 points and gen = 2 Points) It’s like the Korean War.......endless hordes pouring over the defences, regardless of losses.....😳 I’ve played with and against Early Libyan quite a few times now, and they’re soooo hard to beat, even with the ‘4 kills’ standard conditions. |
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Post by stevie on Sept 18, 2019 8:22:24 GMT
That's OK till you fight a list like this , Bk1/7a Early Libyan , Gen 3Ax , 5 x 5Hd , archers 2 x Ps , javelinmen 3 x Ps ! Brilliant! So with Ps counting as 1/2 element lost and the first one not counting, that means you'd have to wipe out the whole army to win!! (It's actually 6 Hd not 5, otherwise you've only got 11 elements) (Hd don't count, 1st Ps doesn't count, leaving 4 Ps and 1 Ax Gen, 4 Ps killed = 2 points and gen = 2 Points) Er...I don’t think Vic was proposing both the first Ps lost doesn’t count AND Ps count as ½... ...he is saying people have suggested one or the other, not both together. And the first Ps lost not counting does have a fairly small effect (and keeps whole numbers, as I find that counting in halves can be a bit awkward). (See fanaticus.boards.net/post/12529/ ) Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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