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Post by paulhannah on Feb 5, 2019 22:20:05 GMT
Jan 27, 2019 14:31:53 GMT -8 Haardrada said: [in another thread, regarding the Mu-Jung Hsien-pi] I am still struggling to find the source for the "Chained" Cavalry in the narrative which described their use of chains to resist shock Cavalry...when the only source I have found for their use was against infantry formations and it is most probably a metaphor. ...I love chasing up sources of obscure nations...Do you or others here know what historical battle was the basis for the "dust throwing women with banners mounted on oxen" Solid Horde gimmick in the II/61b Mu-jung Hsien-pi list? What DBA army was their opponent? And, is there maybe just enough info in whatever the source is to create a (roughly) 12-element, DBA historical scenario? --If anyone should feel so inspired...Stevie, perhaps?
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Post by stevie on Feb 6, 2019 0:40:50 GMT
Ha! You’re asking the wrong bloke! This is one for Haardrada, as I know nothing about Chinese ancient history. However, I did find this:- Battle of Zheng (or Cheng), 384 AD. A battle in China in which the Xianbei chief Murong Chong defeated a Qin army of 50,000 under commander Fu Hui. Chong was one of several subordinates who rebelled, wishing to reconstitute Murong Hui’s kingdom after Fu Jain’s defeat at the river Fei. Chong attacked the Qin defensive position at dawn with a decoy charge by women mounted on oxen, carrying poles to look like standards and holding bags of dust. At a signal they released the dust, which the wind blew into the faces of the Qin troops. Blinded, the troops were then attacked and routed by the rest of Chong’s army. (Source: books.google.co.uk/books?id=1LUoDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT729&lpg=PT729&dq=women+mounted+on+oxen+in+battle&source=bl&ots=Ttz_8kNkMg&sig=ACfU3U1OW8eu4fNxrAZ9Ct7yIJ-vLQiEqw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi9w72r56XgAhXeShUIHcLNDh8Q6AEwDXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=women%20mounted%20on%20oxen%20in%20battle&f=false )
And DBMM Army List 2/61 says this:-Only Mu-jung Hsien-pi from 300 AD to 431 AD: Women mounted on oxen - Irr Hd (O) @1ap...0-8 elements “The Mu-jung clan who ruled a settled population (and from 337 AD called their state by the Chinese name of Yen) were the first ‘barbarians’ to raise trained Chinese-officered infantry. The women mounted on oxen (and possibly horses) advanced carrying poles to simulate standards and throwing dust from bags into the air to hide the reality and spread panic and confusion, which should be represented by a False Reinforcement stratagem.” Oh, and here is some info about the Battle of Fei River, 383 AD, that led to the Battle of Zheng (or Cheng) a year later:- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fei_River...but no oxen or dusty women in this one. Will that do ya?  Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by paulhannah on Feb 6, 2019 2:52:50 GMT
Battle of Zheng (or Cheng), 384 AD. A battle in China in which the Xianbei chief Murong Chong defeated a Qin army...
Thanks for identifying the date, name of the battle, and then some! Interesting that the gimmick actually worked! The "Qin army" that was defeated, in DBA terms, would be what? II/61c Other Hsien-pi? I need to know what army I need to "persuade" my friend, Eric Donaldson, into researching, buying, and painting. (Tee hee.) |
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Post by Haardrada on Feb 6, 2019 6:38:00 GMT
An admirable effort Stevie, you found more than I have on the subject to date...well done!😊
The Qin or Jin state is the remaining Southern Chinese Kingdom covered by list II/79b...it has 4Kns, WWgs and lots of crossbow,but no allies.
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Post by stevie on Feb 6, 2019 9:52:22 GMT
Actually Haardrada, I’m not sure that II/79b are the correct opponents of the dust throwing women. Qin...Jin...throw me in the bin...all these Chinese names confuse me! But from what I can suss out, this seems to be the sequence of events:- (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fei_River#/media/File:Feiriverbattle.PNG ) The Qin are in the north and are DBA army II/79a, led by commander Fu Jian. The northern Qin lorded over many subjugated Hsien-pi tribes. The Qin were defeated by the southern Jin (DBA army II/79b) at the Fei River in 383 AD. This defeat led to many of the Qin subjugated tribesmen rebelling and becoming independent. One of these independent tribes was the Xianbei (army II/61b, that DBA calls the Mu-jung Hsien-pi). It was the Xianbei (II/61b) that used women on oxen against their old masters the Qin (II/79a) in 384 AD. This is why the army lists have II/61b and II/79a as mutual enemies and not the II/79b. Or perhaps the Qin are DBA army II/61c, and it was they who faced the dust throwing woman of II/61b. However, the dialog that accompanies II/79 does say that the Wei (the Qin?) infantry were more numerous rather than efficient, and it was the fact that the foot were so poor that led to the defeat at the Fei River. Here is some info on who exactly the 'Qin' were:- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_Qin(But I am certainly no expert when it comes to Chinese history...
...I’m an expert at everything else, just not Chinese history  )Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by paulhannah on Feb 6, 2019 15:33:26 GMT
Thanks for the well reasoned replies. (Keep 'em coming.) The chronology isn't nice & tidy for the II/79a Chinese Northern Dynasty as the opponent at the Battle of Cheng (AD 384), since the Commentary notes that the CND wasn't founded until two years after the battle (AD 386). But, the II/79a CND army, with the foot options, does probably make for a more interesting opponent for the "Moo" Jung Hsien-pi and their bovine gimmick.
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Post by Haardrada on Feb 6, 2019 15:51:12 GMT
Trust me to call it wrong when Im away from my books....its the Former Ch'in army II/21c who were the Xanbei opponents at the battle of Zeng (Cheng) in 384 AD.Fu Jian had lost support after the Battle of Fei River and this further defeat led to the Xanbei establishing the Western Yan.
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Post by paulhannah on Feb 6, 2019 15:54:37 GMT
Trust me to call it wrong when Im away from my books....its the Former Ch'in army II/21c who were the Xanbei opponents at the battle of Zeng (Cheng) in 384 AD.Fu Jian had lost support after the Battle of Fei River and this further defeat led to the Xanbei establishing the Former Yan. Bingo! I think you've got it. II/21c Former Ch'in. Hidden right there in plain sight. Dates all match up, etc. |
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Feb 6, 2019 15:55:01 GMT
The Qin you are looking for is "Former Qin" or "Former Ch'in" as it is called in Wade-Giles.
It is listed under II/21 in the 2.2 book (it may be the same army number in 3.0 but I do not have that book available with me)
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Feb 6, 2019 15:56:55 GMT
Looks like three of us were typing at the same time.  |
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Post by stevie on Feb 6, 2019 17:18:22 GMT
There ya go Paul...I told you that you were asking the wrong bloke. Haardrada and Tony had the right answer all along. (And no need to change the “Army List Corrections”, as II/61b and II/21c are already mutual enemies of each other)Still, it is odd that DBMM says that II/61b “were the first ‘barbarians’ to raise trained Chinese-officered infantry”, but ended up as II/79a, with the worst infantry... Oh well...you know what I’m going to say now don’t you...and for the first time this year... ...”I didn’t write the rules”. Some Helpful Downloads can be found here: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And here is the latest Jan 2019 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2019_1st_Quarter
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Post by gregorius on Feb 7, 2019 0:11:44 GMT
Paul, just a thought when it comes to modeling the "dust throwing women" element(s).Just spray some kapok/polyfibre an appropriate colour and cover the entire base with it to represent the swirling dust. That way you won't need to worry about appropriate figures and it will leave your opponent guessing as to the identity of the mysterious column of dust. Not an entirely tongue in cheek suggestion.
Cheers,
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aristonicus
Munifex
The man from Lucania returns..
Posts: 25
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Post by aristonicus on Feb 20, 2019 8:10:06 GMT
Hi Paul, RE: the chained cavalry of II/61b The battle this occurred in was on or prior to 17 May 352 AD, however I don't know of a name for the battle or an exact location. I tried to check online relevant Chinese sources such as the Zizhi Tongjian and the History of the Jin Dynasty (the Book of Jin) but Google translate isn't up to the task. It isn't in Chris Peers "Warlords of China" or Ralph D. Sawyers' "The Tao of Deception" which has dozens of battle descriptions, or David A. Graff's "Medieval Chinese Warfare 300-900AD". Sadly, all we have is an old China History Forum post by an Author called "Warhead". Now, Warhead does (or did) know his stuff and what he wrote matches pretty closely with the above mentioned online Chinese sources that I read (albeit with the "drunken sailor translation" - but I could make out enough to make some sense of it). This battle account is extracted from an online essay titled "Ran Min - the Hitler of Ancient East Asia" - current link now that China History Forum has been deceased for a decade: www.allempires.com/Forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=2188Wikipedia on Ran Min, who was the opponent of the Murong Xianbei in this battle: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ran_MinThe commander of the Murong in this battle was Murong Ke (or Ge, as below) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murong_KeHere is the edited account of the battle: [His kingdoms' resources were depleted so] Ran Min therefore raided the inhabitants in the Ding Zhou part of Hebei for supplies with only 10,000 infantry. But he was too careless, and the Murong army heard of this and mobilized a large portion of their whole army numbering 200,000 and surrounded the region.
The Yan general Murong Ge finally manage to trap Ran Min's 10,000 infantry, and he formed encirclements on Ran Min's army and greatly outnumbered his. Although Rang Min's army is mostly infantry, all of them were highly disciplined troops who had trained and fought at his side since the beginning. And although Ran Min is a butcher and tyrant he still loved his troops like his sons so they would fight with him to the death. Due to this Murong Ge was repeatedly defeated by Ran Min's infantry since they would just charge in formation at one point of the Yan cavalry, always breaking the encirclement.
And over ten battles Murong Ge always failed to win. Murong Ge found out that the reason is Ran Min's infantry always goes through the gaps that result in his cavalry encirclement after it got hit by the force of Ran Min's infantry. So he ordered the horses tied together with chains to fill the gaps and also prevent the horses from running away.
Next morning, Murong Ge divided his army into 3 divisions and ordered the left and right divisions to ambush on the two flanks. He put a large flag at the front of the central division which was composed of 5,000 elite horse-archers chained together in a square. Ran Min saw it [the flag] and led the charge at the Yan army on his horse Zhu Long [Red Dragon] wielding a double bladed lance in his left hand and a halberd with his right. His troops were so amazed and the soldiers were all inspired by Ran Min's courage and success and all shouted "Wan Sui"(may the emperor live ten thousand years) then Ran Min charged and broke the scattered the Yan front line cavalry killing 300. When the Wei infantry reached the Yan central division of the Chained cavalry the Wei army couldn't break through and, as they had never faced such tactic before, were in panic. At this time the Yan cavalry from the two ambushing divisions attacked the flanks of the Wei, the Wei troops broke rank and fled, Ran Min rode his fast horse and manage to escape a far distance but his horse died from overexhaustion and he was captured. Thus the invincible Wei army which had crushed the multiple armies of the north and slaughtered countless nomads was finally brought to an end. When Ran Min was brought to Murong Jun, he was scolded, "You are a subject of Zhao how could you overthrow your emperor and declare yourself an emperor." Ran Min answered without shame "If barbarians like you could become emperor, then why can't a hero of the Middle Kingdom like me become emperor"? Murong Jung was furious and ordered Ran Ming beaten and imprisoned, later the rest of Wei was overrun and Ran Min and his son were executed. Ending the Ran-Wei Kingdom and his reign of terror." |
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aristonicus
Munifex
The man from Lucania returns..
Posts: 25
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Post by aristonicus on Feb 20, 2019 8:31:34 GMT
Now, for the Former Yan Kingdom Army in this battle:
1 x General (4Kn), 2 x Nobles (4Kn or 3Kn), 4 x Chained cavalry (6Cv), 4 x horse archers (LH), 1 x horse archers (LH) or archers (Ps)
My impression is that Murong Ke's army for the battle (and the prior 10 battles) was entirely mounted, probably if their Chinese infantry took part in this campaign at all, they were not mobile enough to use in the encirclement battles they were attempting. Or they weren't considered reliable enough.
For the Ran-Wei Kingdom army I would base it on II/79b Southern Dynasty Army:
1 x General (3Kn), 1 x cavalry (3Kn), 2 x Swordsmen or halberdiers (3/4Bd), 2 x Spearmen (3Ax), 3 x Archers (Ps), 3 x other Chinese infantry (3Bd or 3Ax)
Almost certainly, Ran Min's army had very few, if any, crossbowmen. His infantry do seem to have been fast troops and it is obliquely mentioned that they used the terrain well (woods mainly) to avoid the
enemy cavalry.
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Post by Dave Beatty on Apr 1, 2024 19:25:21 GMT
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