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Post by stevie on Nov 12, 2018 12:31:13 GMT
What is the consensus of the DBA community on the following issue. INTERPENETRATION [9.5]Moving or fleeing: If making a tactical move or fleeing, a mounted element can pass through friendly Psiloi, or Psiloi pass through any friends, but in both cases only if there is sufficient clear space beyond (see diagram 6b) and enough move to occupy it, and either:- (a) it starts partly directly in front (even if unaligned or facing a different direction – see diagram 6a) and ends the move lined-up behind, (b) or starts lined-up behind and ends lined-up in front. The problem is, troops leaving a TZ or fleeing must travel in a rigid straight line...so can they deviate to line-up? If the lining-up is part of the fleeing/backing-out-of-a-TZ action, then no, they can’t line-up so can’t interpenetrate. If the lining-up isn’t part of the fleeing/backing-out-of-a-TZ action, but is a separate sub-routine, then yes, they can interpenetrate. So which is it? The answer is important, as having Ps offset and not exactly lined-up behind can be a great help preventing mounted from fleeing right off the table (such as when Cv or LH flee when doubled by Sp or Pk). Example:- Sp Sp Sp Cv Cv Cv
Ps Ps
When doubled, do the blue Cv pass right through the blue Ps (lining-up behind them), or do they halt when they meet the Ps because they cannot deviate from a straight-line to line-up behind the Ps? Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by martin on Nov 12, 2018 12:38:34 GMT
What is the consensus of the DBA community on the following issue. INTERPENETRATION [9.5]Moving or fleeing: If making a tactical move or fleeing, a mounted element can pass through friendly Psiloi, or Psiloi pass through any friends, but in both cases only if there is sufficient clear space beyond (see diagram 6b) and enough move to occupy it, and either:- (a) it starts partly directly in front (even if unaligned or facing a different direction – see diagram 6a) and ends the move lined-up behind, (b) or starts lined-up behind and ends lined-up in front. The problem is, troops leaving a TZ or fleeing must travel in a rigid straight line...so can they deviate to line-up? If the lining-up is part of the fleeing/backing-out-of-a-TZ action, then no, they can’t line-up so can’t interpenetrate. If the lining-up isn’t part of the fleeing/backing-out-of-a-TZ action, but is a separate sub-routine, then yes, they can interpenetrate. So which is it? The answer is important, as having Ps offset and not exactly lined-up behind can be a great help preventing mounted from fleeing right off the table (such as when Cv or LH flee when doubled by Sp or Pk). Example:- Sp Sp Sp Sp Sp Cv Cv Cv
Ps Ps
When doubled, do the blue Cv pass right through the blue Ps, or do they halt when they meet the Ps because they cannot deviate from a straight-line to line-up behind the Ps? Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
Good question...what the meaning of ‘lined up’ might be was under discussion recently. Scott, did you run through this with ? Richard ? The wording of the rules certainly leaves me very uncertain as to what IS possible, in this regard. |
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Post by stevie on Nov 12, 2018 14:54:27 GMT
Actually Martin, diagram 11 on page 21 gives a good description of what ‘lining-up’ means... ...I read it as paraphrased as:- “the front-edge would be in contact and corners would touch the other element's corners if the position were projected directly forwards”. As it goes, I temporarily won the argument (well, we were fighting in my house with my figures  ), but I am fully aware that I was merely exploiting the rules by using a cheesy positional trick in order to stop my Cv from fleeing too far. After all, if the Cv would flee through the Ps in this situation:- ...then why would they not do the same in this situation?:- Sp Sp Sp Sp Sp Sp
Cv Cv Cv Cv Cv Cv
Ps Ps Ps Ps
From a ‘realistic’ point of view (and I know that the word ‘realistic’ is disliked by some people...which is odd considering that DBA is based on historical reality) I can see no difference in the two situations shown above... ...the Cv can easily pass through Ps who are in open formation, with each man standing a couple of paces apart. The problem comes when one rule (fleeing/TZ) says they travel in a straight-line, and another rule (interpenetration) says they must divert to line-up after passing through. Treating ‘lining-up’ as a separate independent sub-routine that automatically occurs after involuntary physical movement is one possible solution to this dilemma. |
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Post by scottrussell on Nov 12, 2018 15:46:11 GMT
Martin,
No, sorry. Different esoteric scenario. Relating to phantom overlap.
Scott
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Post by bob on Nov 12, 2018 17:59:59 GMT
Do not confuse a tactical move in the TZ with the outcome move of a flee.
"if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. TZs do not affect outcome moves. "
Backing up
"A fleeing element turns 180 degrees in place; and then moves straight forward without turning for its full tactical move distance for the going it starts in. "
Moving forward
Once an element starts to flee, then the interpenetration rules take effect.
"If making a tactical move or fleeing, a mounted element can pass through friendly Psiloi or Psiloi pass through any friends, but in both cases only if there is sufficient clear space beyond and enough move to occupy it; and either (a) it starts at least partly directly in front and ends the move lined-up behind or (b) starts lined-up behind and ends lined-up in front."
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Post by stevie on Nov 12, 2018 19:39:11 GMT
Yes Bob, backing out of a Threat Zone is a voluntary choice (costing PIPs and with no change of facing) while fleeing is an involuntary combat outcome (with a compulsory 180 degree change of facing).
Nonetheless, although both situations have different causes, the effects when they bump into friends are both covered by rule 9.5:-
“INTERPENETRATION [9.5]: If making a tactical move or fleeing...”
The question still remains...if backing out of a TZ and fleeing must both be in a straight-line, can a mounted element divert to line-up after they have passed through friendly Ps? Or is the interpenetration not possible because to line-up is not moving in a straight-line?
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Post by Vic on Nov 12, 2018 19:44:47 GMT
Following the rules as written, I think being perfectly aligned in front (with parallel front edges and with flank edges along the same line) would be the only situation in which fleeing units can interpenetrate.
So while during movement it is sufficient for the moving element to be partly directly in front of the static element, because of the additional restriction imposed by the fleeing rules that the fleeing element must move in a straight line, fleeing elements can only interpenetrate elements perfectly aligned with them. In other words, the space of possible situations in which interpenetration is allowed is larger for moving than for fleeing.
I don't know if this is how it should be, but I think it's the solution that respects the letter of both rules.
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Post by stevie on Nov 12, 2018 20:06:35 GMT
That is exactly what I thought Vic, which is why I did it. However, it is still an exploitative cheesy positional trick that has no basis whatsoever in reality. (As my opponent quite rightly pointed out...
...and I still feel guilty about using such an unrealistic situation just because the rules mistakenly seem to allow it) Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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), but I am fully aware that I was merely exploiting the rules by using a cheesy positional trick in order to stop my Cv from fleeing too far.
