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Post by crazycaptain560 on Oct 26, 2018 12:10:02 GMT
The diagram is a bit off. The rear of the center element was touching friends. My friend and I ran into an awkward situation. His element had enough movement to contact the blue element, but there was no room for either side to make corner to corner contact. We just played it as if we were both overlapped. It felt odd that he could do nothing to a body of troops in his center. This is just a rough diagram, because it worked out, through bounds of contact, that the center element was stuck in that awkward spot. If this is not an applicable tactical move can someone explain the abstract rational? I want to "paint a picture" for him next time we played. The diagram is a bit off. The rear of the center element was touching friends. Attachments:
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Post by davidjconstable on Oct 26, 2018 14:22:05 GMT
How the rules say you treat this I do not know.
Common sense suggests blue should turn as far as it can to face red, while keeping the contact point as near as possible on its base front corner. If blue cannot contact front to front fully, then red should complete the contact.
How you write these odd situations into the rules I do not know.
David Constable
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Post by stevie on Oct 26, 2018 15:53:08 GMT
Oooo...this is a tricky one (but I like puzzles).  Let’s take it step-by-step. Question: who’s duty is it to conform? Well, it’s obviously the red players bound, and as a moving single element red element ‘A’ must do the conforming...but there isn’t enough room. And the red player cannot invoke the “Pysically Blocked“ rule (rule 9.10), because it has not contacted the blue element ‘B’ front edge. Therefore, the red element cannot end the Movement Phase in corner-to-corner contact (rule 9.9), so the contact is illegal. The red player will just have to stop short and settle for pinning blue element ‘B’ with it’s Threat Zone. ---Then it all depends upon what the blue player does in his bound--- The blue player has three options:- (a) element ‘B’ cannot move straight back out of the Threat Zone because his own friends are in the way, so will have to spend a bound and PIP to straighten-up first, (b) or blue could attack red element ‘A’, (c) lastly, the blue player could just leave element ‘B’ where it is and spend his PIPs elsewhere. If blue element ‘B’ attacks red element ‘A’, then, as as single element, it will be blue’s duty to conform...but cannot because of the lack of room. Ah, but he has made contact with red element ‘A’ front-edge, so he can invoke the “Physically Blocked” rule. So red must do the conforming instead, but also cannot because of the lack of room, so red ends up fighting as if overlapped...not blue (see picture #1 below). And if blue just stays where his is without moving at all, then red in his next bound should have enough movement to contact blues’s front-edge, should conform, cannot because of the lack of room, so invokes the “Physically Blocked” rule forcing blue to conform. And as blue also lacks the space to get those front-corners touching, now it’s blue that must fight as if overlapped...and not red (see picture #2 below).  I hope all this helps.  Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by medievalthomas on Oct 26, 2018 16:00:35 GMT
Here's the steps I would apply:
Front edge contact? Yes then Elements must attempt to conform.
Contacting Single Element? Yes so Red must attempt to conform as much as possible (so it swings around into the gap and lines up but cannot fully conform).
Cannot fully conform? Yes so Blue Element must attempt to complete conforming or fight as if overlapped.
These steps will get you the most historically reasonable and easiest to enforce answer. But where is this in the rules you ask? Well as always with Phil little is said but much is implied.
TomT
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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 26, 2018 16:15:07 GMT
I may not be interpreting the diagrams correctly, but I don't see how A can reach B without entering the Threat Zone of the element to B's left - and once it is in that TZ it can't move out of it to get to B.
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Post by stevie on Oct 26, 2018 16:31:41 GMT
I agree Tom. If the “Physically Blocked” rule in page 9 paragraph 10 said:- “If conforming to a front edge by contactors is prevented...”, things would be sooooo much easier. There more arbitrary, unnecessary, fiddly, counter-intuitive and contradictory restrictions that are placed in the Contact & Conforming rules, the harder it becomes to conform and follow the principle that moving a front-edge into contact always results in combat. They don’t help play. They don’t make things more realistic. They just give everybody a headache! Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by Tony Aguilar on Oct 26, 2018 16:34:33 GMT
Oooo...this is a tricky one (but I like puzzles). Let’s take it step-by-step. Question: who’s duty is it to conform? Well, it’s obviously the red players bound, and as a moving single element red element ‘A’ must do the conforming...but there isn’t enough room. And the red player cannot invoke the “Pysically Blocked“ rule (rule 9.10), because it has not contacted the blue element ‘B’ front edge. Therefore, the red element cannot end the Movement Phase in corner-to-corner contact (rule 9.9), so the contact is illegal. The red player will just have to stop short and settle for pinning blue element ‘B’ with it’s Threat Zone. ---Then it all depends upon what the blue player does in his bound--- The blue player has three options:- (a) element ‘B’ cannot move straight back out of the Threat Zone because his own friends are in the way, so will have to spend a bound and PIP to straighten-up first, (b) or blue could attack red element ‘A’, (c) lastly, the blue player could just leave element ‘B’ where it is and spend his PIPs elsewhere. If blue element ‘B’ attacks red element ‘A’, then, as as single element, it will be blue’s duty to conform...but cannot because of the lack of room. Ah, but he has made contact with red element ‘A’ front-edge, so he can invoke the “Physically Blocked” rule. So red must do the conforming instead, but also cannot because of the lack of room, so red ends up fighting as if overlapped...not blue (see picture #1 below). And if blue just stays where his is without moving at all, then red in his next bound should have enough movement to contact blues’s front-edge, should conform, cannot because of the lack of room, so invokes the “Physically Blocked” rule forcing blue to conform. And as blue also lacks the space to get those front-corners touching, now it’s blue that must fight as if overlapped...and not red (see picture #2 below). I hope all this helps. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
Spot on, Stevie. |
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Post by stevie on Oct 26, 2018 16:43:29 GMT
Oops...my apologies to Menacussecundas...I didn’t notice your post (I’m a slooooow typer). I may not be interpreting the diagrams correctly, but I don't see how A can reach B without entering the Threat Zone of the element to B's left - and once it is in that TZ it can't move out of it to get to B. Well, red element ‘A’ could move sideways for 1 BW, keeping out of blue’s Threat Zone, then move forwards a 1 BW to contact the blue element’s front corner (but you’re right, it wouldn’t end in the position shown in CrazyCaptain’s first picture). |
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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 26, 2018 16:59:57 GMT
Oops...my apologies to Menacussecundas...I didn’t notice your post (I’m a slooooow typer). I may not be interpreting the diagrams correctly, but I don't see how A can reach B without entering the Threat Zone of the element to B's left - and once it is in that TZ it can't move out of it to get to B. Well, red element ‘A’ could move sideways for 1 BW, keeping out of blue’s Threat Zone, then move forwards a 1 BW to contact the blue element’s front corner (but you’re right, it wouldn’t end in the position shown in CrazyCaptain’s first picture). I think that if A has enough movement to do that, it would also be able to contact B's front edge rather than just the corner, which then gives it a free slide, after which B would have to (try to) conform, then find it can't and fight as if overlapped. |
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Post by davidjconstable on Oct 27, 2018 1:42:45 GMT
Interesting, common sense zero, fiddles able to be applied ten, if you are not careful.
David Constable
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Post by lkmjbc on Oct 27, 2018 2:30:26 GMT
I see most of the replies as reflecting the rules are written. I think this a good thing!
Joe Collins
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Post by stevie on Oct 27, 2018 8:44:58 GMT
But Joe, why do the conforming rules as written have to be so mind-numbingly complex? Surely they could be simpler...and getting rid of unnecessary restrictions would be a start. Take that “Physically Blocked only applies when contacting an enemy front-edge” rule for example. Not only does it cause complications in the situation under discussion, it also causes absurd situations like having elements who are immune to ever being attacked in the flank (see fanaticus.boards.net/post/16361/ ). A rule that causes problems is a bad rule. Especially when getting rid of it makes the game easier to play and is more realistic. |
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Post by davidjconstable on Oct 27, 2018 9:28:23 GMT
Joe you are oh so wrong.
I have seen this so much over the years.
I shall remember DBA2.2 with fondness, but never return to DBA.
David Constable
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Post by lkmjbc on Oct 27, 2018 12:51:17 GMT
Joe you are oh so wrong. I have seen this so much over the years. I shall remember DBA2.2 with fondness, but never return to DBA. David Constable Experience tells me I am correct. I've played hundreds of 3.0 games, run at least 7 tournaments, multiple campaigns, and many historical games without an issue. I also cannot use the stupid tricks to win games and tournaments that I used in under 2.2. I won quite a few. In this example, folks have read the rules and interpreted them correctly. I am happy with that. Joe Collins |
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Post by Les1964 on Oct 27, 2018 13:41:08 GMT
TBH why would you place an element in the middle of a line ,like that in the first place ?  |
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