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Post by louien on Oct 18, 2018 20:11:17 GMT
Hello All,
I have a weird one, at least for me. In the example below the Red Bow unit shots Blue Ps and doubles the Ps, Ps must flee. It is already facing away, but there is an enemy Cav in the way. So What happens?
Does the Ps flee north (top) unit we hit it the enemy Cav? I am not sure where the Ps ends up.
Thanks for any help.
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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 18, 2018 21:09:33 GMT
Under the rules as written, the Ps should turn 180 degrees before moving. They would then hit the Bw, line up with them and close combat would take place not immediately but in the next bound.
In practice, I would suggest that they should flee away from the shooters until they contact the cavalry, then slide into front corner to front corner contact with the cavalry who then turn to face. A round of close combat follows. My inclination is that this should happen immediately, but I wouldn't argue too strongly if someone suggested that we should keep to the rules and do it in the next bound.
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Post by lkmjbc on Oct 18, 2018 21:52:05 GMT
This again is addressed in the FAQ!
But then again... all good things are!
Joe Collins
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Post by louien on Oct 19, 2018 0:31:45 GMT
Sorry Joe my search of the FAQ failed me at first. Upon further review I found the FAQ in reference.
Q: I have a Light Horse element that was shot by artillery in the rear who was the primary shooter. The Combat Outcome states that it will flee to its rear. This will actually have it contact the artillery that shot it. Is this correct? A: This is the result for the rules as written, but is an oversight in the rules. With both players’ agreement, use this exception... "An element with a Flee outcome to shooting at least partially on its rear edge, does not turn 180 degrees before moving but just Flees straight forward. " This would apply to any element receiving a flee result from shooting at least partially to its rear edge. We recommend adding this exception as the last line of the first paragraph regarding "Fleeing" on page 12.
ok I got that now. So the unit will flee straight until it hits that enemy cavalry unit. Will the cav turn to face and align or the two units will simply be in contact? Will it be the same as a pursuit?
If a pursuing element’s front edge contacts enemy or its front corner contacts an enemy front edge, it or they line up immediately as if contact was by a tactical move, but the resulting combat is resolved next bound.
I am playing the game and learning.
Thanks
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Post by bob on Oct 19, 2018 17:40:24 GMT
Note that the FAQ interpretation given above is optional if both players agree. Who’s to say that this is an “Oversight“. I preferred to play the rules as written and assume that Phil knew what he was doing. Also none of the development team complained about this, so it must’ve been good at the time. I guess the FAQ team believes that if two players agree on any rule change they can play at that way. That seems fine for casual play, but I wonder how that would work in a tournament. I actually like the idea of an element that is shot on the rear turns in to attack the shooter.
I believe that the PS, if fleeing straightforward Cannot contact the enemy cavalry in the orientation that they are in. We discussed this At great length in an earlier thread, the contact must be made corner to corner to be legal, or not contact at all.
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Post by menacussecundus on Oct 19, 2018 22:02:11 GMT
............. I believe that the PS, if fleyeing straightforward Cannot contact the enemy cavalry in the orientation that they are in. We discussed this At great length in an earlier thread, the contact must be made corner to corner to be legal, or not contact at all. As you say, Bob, this point was discussed extensively in another thread. However, and this, in my view, is the crucial difference, that was in the context of voluntary moves which occur in the movement phase and for which PIPs are paid. Here the contact results because of an outcome move (recoiling/fleeing/pursuing) which is in a different phase and I believe that it is allowed. |
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Post by bob on Oct 21, 2018 3:01:37 GMT
This seems to be true, if you read the flee rule: “It stops before completing its move and lines up if its front edge (or front corner only) contacts any of: (a) enemy (whom it will fight next bound),”. I guess we must assume that the term “lines up it’s front edge”. . Means that The moving elements conforms even if hitting the enemy on the flank. Strange that this can happen as an outcome but not as a tactical move.
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Post by primuspilus on Oct 22, 2018 3:09:14 GMT
Bob, Stevie and I are not convinced that this can't happen as a tactical move. Seems the simplest and most direct application of the prime directive: contact results (ultimately) in combat, and elements that would readily engage in real life will do so in the game.
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Post by davidjconstable on Oct 22, 2018 4:02:33 GMT
As an old hand, most of the rules I have played or tried assume that troops that flee AVOID enemy, and do not contact.
It makes sense for those fleeing to avoid the enemy, and I for one would be very upset if my General got killed in this way, and I lost the game.
Items are very often missed if they do not occur in playtesting, and this might be one.
I know that PB puts in the rules contact results in melee, but I would expect that to be DELIBERATE contact, and treat a flee as accidental.
David Constable
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Post by primuspilus on Oct 22, 2018 4:15:54 GMT
The description of fleeing in the rulebook seems to suggest that the troops doing it are not only NOT necessarily avoiding the enemy, but even worse: at best they are just not thinking things through all that much...at worst they are a panicking, scrabbling rabble incapable of fine motor skills such as swerving in formation ...
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Post by stevie on Oct 22, 2018 10:18:42 GMT
Actually Primuspilus, when a body of men who’s morale has been broken and they are running for their lives but find themselves surrounded and boxed-in by the enemy with no way to escape...in reality, they would probably surrender (yes, even in ancient times men would sometimes surrender. They didn’t all ‘ fight-to-the-death’!). Having some sort of swerving rule whereby fleeing troops change direction by the minimum amount to avoid enemy contact but still make a full uncontrolled flee move would have been more realistic and better. But that’s the price we pay when we play DBA (I’m a poet and didn’t know it). Such a swerve rule, although more realistic, adds a little bit more complexity to the rules. Much easier for the author to just say fleeing troops move in a straight line...even if this does give nonsensical results at times. (Maybe something for a future version of DBA perhaps?...)Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by davidjconstable on Oct 22, 2018 12:57:40 GMT
I do not know how easy it would be to have a future version, unless you make only simple changes.
A re-write of the rules requires three primary things.
First - "everything has a place, everything in its place." So Camp description is in terrain, moving in the camp is in movement, its effect on combat is in combat. Do not put items in a diagram unless they are in the main rules.
Second - shortened paragraphs, using bullet points where needed.
Third - write what you mean, mean what you write.
If that can be achieved test it.
First - ask a twelve year old to play a few games with them deciding things, asking them "why" if they are wrong.
Second - ensure people do not need an English dictionary and grammar book to play.
Thirdly - Acknowledge the fact there is American/English and English/English, and they are not the same. If a twelve year old cannot understand it then try alternative wording.
Forth - learn from previous problems.
David Constable
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Post by stevie on Oct 22, 2018 15:09:36 GMT
Good points David, and I entirely agree with you. Far be it for me to blow my own trumpet (as if I would  ), but what you say is exactly what I did when I created those “Detailed Crib Sheets for DBA 3.0” (see fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/File:DETAILED_CRIB_SHEETS_for_DBA_3.0.pdf ). Page 1: This contains all the pre-battle stuff (and is coloured bureaucratic grey).
Page 2: All the Command and Control rules (in imperial purple).
All the Movement and Contact rules (in grass green).
All the Shooting and Range rules (in sky blue).
Page 3: All the Combat Factors and Outcomes (in dried blood brown).
All the Post Combat ‘Morale’ rules (in cowardly yellow).
Page 4: All the City, Fort, and Camp rules (in stone wall grey).
Lastly, all the Big Battle DBA rules (again in imperial purple).
For example, take Interpenetration. There are three very different types of interpenetration:- Voluntary interpenetration (which occurs during movement and costs PIPs) Recoil interpenetration (caused by combat outcomes) And Fleeing interpenetration (also caused by combat outcomes, but with different effects from recoiling) It’s no good telling players about Recoil and Fleeing interpretation in the Movement Section...they need to know this after combat. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by davidjconstable on Oct 23, 2018 9:30:10 GMT
Correct.
On my first day at work in 1964 we were given a radiator key to drain air out of central heating radiators and told to always carry it, I still do around my neck.
Secondly as we would be doing filing and looking for things in files "everything has a place, and everything in its place." This was brought home to everybody at the branch a couple of years latter when an engineer lost a letter that was going to cost us about £500,000, now in 1968ish that was a lot of money, and millionaires were rare. The letter was found in completely the wrong file, on a second search, each search took four of us about a week, it was in completely the wrong file.
This occurred in DBA2.2 with dismounting and remounting for instance. A single line in terrain description might be very important in movement or combat, but not in terrain description.
David Constable
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Post by medievalthomas on Oct 23, 2018 18:07:31 GMT
The FAQ represents the correct intent but differs from the screwed up text. Pick your poison. The intent is that the PS Flees from the Bow shooting it in the rear. It stops when it hits the Cav blocking the Flee (since the Ps can start its Flee it is not Destroyed). Conforming from this contact is another question. Best guess is that conforming conforming occurs at end of next movement phase. Better organized rules would have post combat conforming (from Pursuits or Flees) dealt with at the end of combat.
Phil writes rules in a stream of consciousness format. When an idea occurs to him he writes it down - even if in mid-sentence about something else. His genius is to power forth great ideas; his curse is not recognize their interactions.
Panicked fleeing troops do not necessarily have the sense to as a body avoid blocking foes and are quite likely to run into them. Of the various possible behaviors the rule went with the simplest and in many cases most likely.
TomT
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), but what you say is exactly what I did when I created those “Detailed Crib Sheets for DBA 3.0” (see 