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Post by greedo on Jul 4, 2018 5:51:11 GMT
So I know that ranged fire is supposed to be limited to Bw and Art, but hear me out...
Been trying to figure out a good way to differentiate Slingers from Javelin Ps for an interesting house rule.
Slinger Ps get a bowfire range of 1BW, same rules as Bw with regards to support, and still +2,+2. This represents the extra range that Slingers had over javelins, but without firing huge "darken the sky" type volleys that have the 3BW range of blocks of Bows.
Most other rules sets have Slingers as higher range over javelins, so it got me thinking.
Another optional one for slingers might be this:
When Sling Ps contact or are contacted by enemy, they get a free "bowshot" at +2 toward the incoming troops before proper cc is conducted.
This one could be used to simulate Pilum too. Just a thought.
I'm guessing this has already been tried, but wanted to shoot it out there (hahah!.... ahem).
Chris
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Post by primuspilus on Jul 4, 2018 11:53:35 GMT
The question DBA seeks to amswer is "if I were an ancient general, how would I use terrain plus my army to defeat my enemy?". The ancient sources do not distinguish between weapon systems at that level. As the designers notes say, "function over form" or words to that effect. If you are going to give one Ps type ranged fire, give it to all?. But you will find they become extremely reluctant to do anything except plink away at the enemy from a distance. Hey, free damage against the enemy, at no PIP cost. Why would I move them?
It has been tried, and you'll find the rule is more effort than it is worth. But give it a go, and see how you like it?
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Post by stevie on Jul 4, 2018 17:27:31 GMT
I agree with Primuspilus.If you want to give slingers range, then what about horse archers? And where do you draw the line with these trivial things? Give some spearmen an advantage because their spears were a bit longer than those of their opponents?... Give some hoplites an advantage because wearing bronze greaves is better than having bare legs?... Give some troops an advantage because iron helmets are better than bronze ones?... We must remember that DBA is unique in that it is a ‘Grand Tactical’ ruleset, and not a set of small scale skirmish rules. Is an element of four blade figures a single cohort, a brigade of three or four cohorts, or does it represent an entire legion? The DBA scale alone requires us to ignore minor issues, and just deal with the things that a general would be interested in. Of course we should pay attention when a particular weapon made a significant difference in an historical battle. But the ancient writers were not bothered by who’s skirmishers had the longest range...just that they were skirmishing. Nor were they bothered whether light horse were armed with javelins or bows (and they seldom even mention these differences). Yes, different weapons had slightly different abilities, but it’s their overall effect on a battle that is important. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by greedo on Jul 4, 2018 17:45:42 GMT
Yeah you’re probably right. Might just allow Ps to be superior if they are slingers...
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Post by jim1973 on Jul 4, 2018 20:46:41 GMT
Yeah you’re probably right. Might just allow Ps to be superior if they are slingers... Agrianian javelinmen were considered superior... Cheers Jim |
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Post by jeffreythancock on Jul 5, 2018 2:24:46 GMT
If you desire that level of tactic, then you might look at other games like DBMM.
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Post by Vic on Jul 6, 2018 11:20:11 GMT
Slingers were historically superior to many archers, and surpassed common bows in both range, impact and density of fire for very long periods (essentially until mass long bow archery and mass crossbows became common). Some particularly effective bodies of slingers were famous for dense and deadly shooting rather than disperse skirmishing.
So I think a better solution, and one that is in line with the "class by function" philosophy of DBA, would be to class some slinger elements (such as ancient Rhodian or Bealearic slingers) as 3Bw instead of Ps.
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Post by stevie on Jul 6, 2018 12:31:35 GMT
That is a very good House Rule solution Vic (love the avatar picture by the way  ). No new special rules required, just use an alternative already existing troop type to represent them. (I like to class Alexander’s hypaspists as 3Bd, because they were elite, and Hannibal’s veterans as 4Bd, because they were better than ordinary spearmen, so why not do the same with some superior slingers?)I believe that during the march of the 10,000 mercenary hoplites returning from the battle of Cunaxa in 401 BC, they re-armed some of their light troops with more slingers as these could out-range the Persian horse archers. However, it might seem a bit odd that some ‘3Bw’ with slings can out-range psiloi with bows...still, leave it up to players to decide. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by wjhupp on Jul 6, 2018 14:36:56 GMT
I think Ps and skirmish concepts are the weakest historical part of the DBA model. It is in part related to the 12 element limit. It is just very hard for 1 element to represent 2000 years of changing function and use. That being said, after you’ve played the game a bit with different armies the abstractions are more comfortable. I just wouldn’t want to verbalize what they are exactly doing on the miniature battlefield.
It is a good place for home rules and experiments.
Bill
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Post by felixs on Jul 6, 2018 15:13:15 GMT
Go with what works for you.
I have come to enjoy the simplicity of DBA in this regard very much. Also, I agree that it is probably more "realistic", since this is how an ancient general would view his troops.
If you want something a little bit more detailed, I find Basic Impetus or Impetus (perhaps with 200 points armies) a great game.
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Post by lkmjbc on Jul 6, 2018 16:53:03 GMT
I think Ps and skirmish concepts are the weakest historical part of the DBA model. It is in part related to the 12 element limit. It is just very hard for 1 element to represent 2000 years of changing function and use. That being said, after you’ve played the game a bit with different armies the abstractions are more comfortable. I just wouldn’t want to verbalize what they are exactly doing on the miniature battlefield. It is a good place for home rules and experiments. Bill Bill I agree with one modification.
I don't think the skirmish concepts are the weakest part of the DBA model... I would use the term "most abstract". The issue is certainly related in part to the 12 element model/limit, though there are other factors at work as well.
So, yes.
Joe Collins
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Post by wjhupp on Jul 13, 2018 23:46:09 GMT
Joe, Fair enough, ‘highly abstract’ probably is a better description. -Bill
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Post by Cromwell on Jul 14, 2018 7:10:18 GMT
I have read the Simon Scarrow series of books on the exploits of two centurions Macro and Cato set during the Early Roman Imperial period.
During a number of engagements the author describes how some legionaries were issued slings which were used to give ranged fire great than that given by their Pilums. Three questions!
1) Is there any historical evidence of Legionaries being issued slings?
2} Is there any evidence Legionaries were trained in the use of slings? The sling requires skill, something anyone who has tried to make or use one as a youngster can attest too.
I can remember worried dog, greenhouse less one window and "ouch that hurt!" during my childhood trials!
2) If there is does this show the range of slings was considered by Legates and their subordinates when draw up battle plans?
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Post by davidjconstable on Jul 14, 2018 8:11:26 GMT
Working purely from memory, some 30 years ago PB looked at this problem when he also looked at Polybian Romans.
The general consensus was that legions might have used a limited number of slingers from their own ranks, but the complication was not worth it. There was some tombstone/monument evidence and also texts, but not a lot. The tombstone/monument evidence showed only sling carried as a weapon.
In the end the killer so to speak against it was the Parthian wars in particular and early Sassanid wars. The evidence was clearly that units of specialist slingers were taken against the horse archers, the legions not being used.
The sling tends to be a shepherds weapon (unless specially formed) and requires a lot of practice to use well.
David Constable
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Post by scottrussell on Jul 15, 2018 7:49:42 GMT
Late Roman legionaries were supplied with darts (martobarbulli, if memory serves), which might have the same effect. I cannot see that any additional house rule for them would be worth the complexity, or the can of worms it would open.
Scott
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