Post by medievalthomas on Nov 15, 2017 17:51:16 GMT
primusplius:
No one is pummeling anyone - nor should we. We are debating trying to make a toy soldier game a bit more "historical". That's all.
(By the way I've been playing DBX since before it was published in a mimeopgrpah version [smelled good]. I've played and won countless tournaments - and lots in even more. I'm a three time national champ in DBM 25mm in the US. I get DBX pretty well and have played armies from many many periods though my historical research in concentrated in the middle ages esp Europe. I don't quite see why be attacked from multi-directions with the most power of the enemies troops on your flank or rear is any different for other periods, however. DBX tends to treat most periods the same - Companions are knights. Pikes are Pikes etc. So the mult--period arguement seems odd in a DBX context.)
Stevie has covered the historical points very well. But I'll add a few comments. Armies make frontal attacks because they have to, not because they want to. Because DBX has heretofore taught that its better for Knights to attack frontally than to the rear its interesting that now we are contending that historically that's what Alexander wanted to do. Again I should note that DBX does not teach this inherently its merely how we apply the rules to this point. The primary attacker rule completely fixes this problem with a minimum of change.
The individual element method of DBX actually better reflects the actual position of troops and is in fact less abstract. Yes the Knights really are hitting the side/rear of the enemy unit - if in frontal contact (the influence situation is covered by the Overlap rule - Hard flanks are different and simulate actual contact). In the real world bodies of troops are much more flexiable than figures glued to bases and DBX does a nice job of showing this my getting rid of artifical units.
The primary attacker rule means you get the same attack no matter how you positioned your elements. You don't benefit by having the Knights hit the enemy rear - but you are not absurdly punished for doing so. The Knight gets the same factor whether its plunging into a mass of spears on the front or franatically turning spear to the rear. You just don't lose the Knights factor for hitting the rear.
Do flank attacks sometimes go wrong due to terrian, enemy reaction, need to wheel or whatever. Yes - that's why we roll dice. It is, however, not a disadvantage to hit the flank.
Flank attacks are force multipliers - the more powerful the attack the more devastating the effect. A few Ps on your flank might not in the rear world even prevent a recoil - a mass of Cav would be a different matter - yet DBX gives us the opposite result.
I've already playtested the primary assualt rule. It works fine. You use the primary attacker's CF and abilities. The defender uses his CF against that type of element and if pike etc. gets full benefit of a rear rank (as pike blocks had decent all round defense if needed). Combat results apply to the primary attacker - other elements recoil (as ususual).
It presents no problem in application. It represents a minor breakthrough in DBX mechanics - fixing a small but vexing problem with no need for major alterations.
TomT
No one is pummeling anyone - nor should we. We are debating trying to make a toy soldier game a bit more "historical". That's all.
(By the way I've been playing DBX since before it was published in a mimeopgrpah version [smelled good]. I've played and won countless tournaments - and lots in even more. I'm a three time national champ in DBM 25mm in the US. I get DBX pretty well and have played armies from many many periods though my historical research in concentrated in the middle ages esp Europe. I don't quite see why be attacked from multi-directions with the most power of the enemies troops on your flank or rear is any different for other periods, however. DBX tends to treat most periods the same - Companions are knights. Pikes are Pikes etc. So the mult--period arguement seems odd in a DBX context.)
Stevie has covered the historical points very well. But I'll add a few comments. Armies make frontal attacks because they have to, not because they want to. Because DBX has heretofore taught that its better for Knights to attack frontally than to the rear its interesting that now we are contending that historically that's what Alexander wanted to do. Again I should note that DBX does not teach this inherently its merely how we apply the rules to this point. The primary attacker rule completely fixes this problem with a minimum of change.
The individual element method of DBX actually better reflects the actual position of troops and is in fact less abstract. Yes the Knights really are hitting the side/rear of the enemy unit - if in frontal contact (the influence situation is covered by the Overlap rule - Hard flanks are different and simulate actual contact). In the real world bodies of troops are much more flexiable than figures glued to bases and DBX does a nice job of showing this my getting rid of artifical units.
The primary attacker rule means you get the same attack no matter how you positioned your elements. You don't benefit by having the Knights hit the enemy rear - but you are not absurdly punished for doing so. The Knight gets the same factor whether its plunging into a mass of spears on the front or franatically turning spear to the rear. You just don't lose the Knights factor for hitting the rear.
Do flank attacks sometimes go wrong due to terrian, enemy reaction, need to wheel or whatever. Yes - that's why we roll dice. It is, however, not a disadvantage to hit the flank.
Flank attacks are force multipliers - the more powerful the attack the more devastating the effect. A few Ps on your flank might not in the rear world even prevent a recoil - a mass of Cav would be a different matter - yet DBX gives us the opposite result.
I've already playtested the primary assualt rule. It works fine. You use the primary attacker's CF and abilities. The defender uses his CF against that type of element and if pike etc. gets full benefit of a rear rank (as pike blocks had decent all round defense if needed). Combat results apply to the primary attacker - other elements recoil (as ususual).
It presents no problem in application. It represents a minor breakthrough in DBX mechanics - fixing a small but vexing problem with no need for major alterations.
TomT
