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Post by twrnz on Jul 16, 2017 3:37:06 GMT
Periodically I find myself facing a Scythed Chariot, normally when facing my regular opponent's Seleucids.
Under DBA 3.0 what do you feel are the strengths? How would you use them? Would you position them in the front line with infantry, or on the flank, or in reserve?
How have you countered them?
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Post by martin on Jul 16, 2017 14:33:49 GMT
Periodically I find myself facing a Scythed Chariot, normally when facing my regular opponent's Seleucids. Under DBA 3.0 what do you feel are the strengths? How would you use them? Would you position them in the front line with infantry, or on the flank, or in reserve? How have you countered them? Free to lose (ie expendable). Once in contact, their pursuit means no PIPS to keep harassing the enemy. Very handy if they can attack from the end of a line, and carve towards the centre. How to counter- with (supported) Ps.
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Post by Haardrada on Jul 16, 2017 18:03:05 GMT
Periodically I find myself facing a Scythed Chariot, normally when facing my regular opponent's Seleucids. Under DBA 3.0 what do you feel are the strengths? How would you use them? Would you position them in the front line with infantry, or on the flank, or in reserve? How have you countered them? Free to lose (ie expendable). Once in contact, their pursuit means no PIPS to keep harassing the enemy. Very handy if they can attack from the end of a line, and carve towards the centre. How to counter- with (supported) Ps. There are a few subtleties worth thinking about when using Scythed Chariots..admittedly I have not used them since Dba.1 where as part of a Selucid army my Sch will be immortality remembered for killing a Roman General on their debute. However, I have looked into some techniques and quirks of the Sch in Dba.3.0 as I had planned to do a Galatian army.What I was looking for was effective ways to use the Sch to support the Cav/Lt.Ch vs Kn and to support the Wb vs Bd and I found a few useful quirks...the fact that Sch Qk Kn and Cm and force Cav & Lh flee from Sch if they loose shows that Sch can be used to support your own Cav and get into a flanking position and also that a Sch does not recoil...its destroyed on negative or even results so can screen another element moving behind it causing an enemy element to persue into a possible double overlap or create a hole in an enemy line for a following up element to exploit? The 4Bw movement also means you could even support Lh as long as you don't want to take extra movement with the Lh. Also remember Sch cost 2 pips to move apart from move 1, On road or unless they end in contact with an enemy element.
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Post by timurilank on Jul 16, 2017 18:52:54 GMT
Periodically I find myself facing a Scythed Chariot, normally when facing my regular opponent's Seleucids. Under DBA 3.0 what do you feel are the strengths? How would you use them? Would you position them in the front line with infantry, or on the flank, or in reserve? How have you countered them? I reviewed the historical matches which I reported early this year between the Seleucid army and eight enemies.
I noted, the scythed chariots did well when they supported the pike phalanx, but deployed further along the flank among the cavalry or with lights, they met a quick end.
The reduction in pip cost if moving into contact is an extra incentive to use them, conversely if forced to flee from shooting then I generally left them to remain idle for the rest of the game.
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Post by Haardrada on Jul 16, 2017 21:17:00 GMT
Oops I missed the flee from shooting result...the element behind the Sch is not recomended facing shooting elements.😊
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Post by twrnz on Jul 16, 2017 21:31:13 GMT
Some interesting observations here.
The Seleucids, like other Successors, suffer from a short frontage. If deploying the Scythed Chariots do people tend to have another stand available to plug the gap if the chariot is destroyed or risk all in the hope of success?
I look set to face the dreaded Seleucid scythed chariots tomorrow evening in a campaign game. I'm still not sure I fully know how I willl counter it, certainly I failed last time. I will however try and avoid It engaging my line from the flank...
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Post by timurilank on Jul 16, 2017 21:54:20 GMT
Oops I missed the flee from shooting result...the element behind the Sch is not recomended facing shooting elements.😊 The scythed chariot turns 180 degrees and flees 4BW. This makes its return to battle a costly expenditure as it is time consuming (2 moves).
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Post by twrnz on Jul 16, 2017 22:57:24 GMT
I hadn't considered using Bw against the Scythed Chariots, as my Classical armies lack massed archers. The PIP drain you point out is significant, especially when you consider the Seleucids have a pachyderm that may not be in contact initially.
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Post by macbeth on Jul 17, 2017 0:53:03 GMT
For what it is worth - the system I used to rate elements for my handicap prizes puts Scythed Chariots right at the bottom
what counts against them is that all elements have a chance to kill them, they cost more than 1 PIP to move - in their pro column is the not counting as a loss and not counting corner overlaps
Cheers
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Post by twrnz on Jul 17, 2017 4:08:39 GMT
Interesting David. I wouldn't have thought they were that bad, but I've been on the receiving end of them a little and failed to stop them. Do you see them used often in your events? I must admit I really like your system which brings out the underused armies. I've just never completely understood how it works.
I recall "Colin the Hittite" cleaned up a couple of us a few years ago, while on holiday here, by his excellent use of Scythed Chariots, among other very clever moves...
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Post by macbeth on Jul 17, 2017 6:47:47 GMT
I have not seen much use of SCh in my tournaments since DBA3 came out - over the course of tournaments I have been involved in in Canberra All We Are Saying - May 2015 (none) Landwaster 2015 - November 2015 (none) Cancon 2016 - January 2016 (none) Collision Course III/3 - May 2016(none) Landwaster 2016 November 2016 - a single competitor with a SCh - Sheldon White, who came in 3rd Cancon 2017 - January 2017 (none) Collision Course 4 - May 2017 - a single competitor with a SCh - Mick Sellman, who came in 4th but won the Magister Militum I have put a brief explanation of how my rating system is calculated in the Magsiter Militum Per Capitoline Territorialis thread in the Tournaments board but a true demonstration of how it is done needs you to be in front of my computer screen staring into the abyss that is the 41 x 39 table of combat result odds In the end I would be prepared to concede that they appear to be underrated (as are 3Bd) but until I can see a flaw in my mathematics I keep the ratings as they stand rather than re-rate things based on gut instinct alone. Cheers
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Post by martin on Jul 17, 2017 20:30:36 GMT
I recall "Colin the Hittite" cleaned up a couple of us a few years ago, while on holiday here, by his excellent use of Scythed Chariots, among other very clever moves... That would be 'Colin the Wily Hittite', who wreaks havoc half way round the globe . We tremble in his mighty presence, and look on in awe as he tramples our humble troops to dust.... M yes, he's can cause chaos back home, too.....
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Post by lkmjbc on Jul 17, 2017 21:26:00 GMT
I have yet to have my SCh do anything... ever... kind of historical actually! (Well, they do die.) This is mainly in my Cunaxa game mind you... so lots of Chariots against lots of other forces... I don't tend to use them in the standard 12 element game.
Joe Collins
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Post by twrnz on Jul 18, 2017 0:54:26 GMT
That would be 'Colin the Wily Hittite', who wreaks havoc half way round the globe . We tremble in his mighty presence, and look on in awe as he tramples our humble troops to dust..... Yes, and all with a loan army! He used the double move of 2.2 for scythed chariots rather effectively if my memory serves me well. Joe, I am surprised your scythed chariots have failed you. I've only faced them once in a BBDBA game and their performance was reasonable, but admittedly not outstanding. Perhaps I just roll poorly at critical moments?
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Post by twrnz on Jul 18, 2017 19:56:06 GMT
Well, in last night's game the Seleucid Scythed Chariots achieved some success again. Though the Seleucid army collapsed moments before my Bactrians in a nail biting game.
Admittedly good PIPs assisted the Scythed Chariot to get in position from a less than advantageous initial deployment, while Bactrian PIPs were limited at a crucial moment. Well that's my story...
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