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Post by medievalthomas on Jun 19, 2017 16:58:50 GMT
How to represent troop quality (or armor weapon differences) has been debated and house ruled for years. No final consensus.
Some attempts: original DBM (I) -1 on losses (F) -1 on losses only in own bound, (S) +1 on losses; Bow +1 also on wins.
This provided the best simulation but was considered too powerful. Missed by those who though it was too powerful was the point cost effect. (S) troops cost more; (I) much less so that the break points of commands got smaller allowing (I) armies of overwhelm. This does not apply to "basic" DBA as all armies break at 4. So would be potentially overpowered unless we give all armies same (S) (I) numbers.
DBM 3.0: weird variant on above system - can't even remember how it worked only that it didn't so we can forget about.
"Best die" (S) roll2d6 take best; (I) 2d6 take worst, something I proposed and used a lot. Works well but is pretty powerful (not much in favor of extra rules that essentially do nothing or so little that its not worth bothering about).
Weapons, Armor and Morale: Heavy Armor +1 on loss, negated by Heavy Weapon; High Morale +1 on lose, negated if Broken. Heavy Weapon +1 on win, negated by Heavy Armor. (Many variations.)
Can't get/reroll "1" or "6": Foggy. Much better if a re-roll allowed (chance of a "1" on reroll is 1-6 not 1-36 - that's the overall chance). Without possible "1" rolls +4 v. +4 can't double so you gets lots of endless no-decisions. (S) Blade v. (S) Blade would be pretty bloodless (its already mostly pushing and shoving). Re-rolls are a bit of bother though all GW/FOW gamers spend most of their gaming lives making them.
Different die: (S) roll d10, average d8, (I) roll d6. Allows every one to roll a "1" sometimes... Wild and wooly but you have to remember to roll correct die. Works better if your entire army gets better die (Elves etc.) but is much smaller.
Tinkering with results: (I) double Recoil (or Flee) on More; (S) have choice to Pursue in all cases; Win ties (already used for Fast) etc.
Tinkering with Type/CF: Longbows get +3 v. Foot (like HOTT Shooters); Medieval Men-at-arms count as +3/+3 Medium Mounted, Shock only against Medium/Ligt Foot (Warband, Bow, Aux, Ps); Crossbows shoot only in own Bound; anything can be rated Fast (so gains 1 BW MA but loses on ties); Cry Havoc (you Destroy stuff on ties - due to close fighting skills). This gives the best overall simulation value and doesn't need extra rules (you just use the old rules in new ways).
Most of this stuff requires some sort of point system - which helps to recreate small v. large armies battles a frequent HYW occurance. (Quality can't be represented by troop scale because you need to be able to have small high quailty armies - which are stout to the front but most worry about being flanked or overlapped by larger foe).
TomT
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Post by martini on Aug 23, 2018 10:52:41 GMT
Thanks to Stevie for bringing this to my attention. Some good ideas here. One more option - although I've never tried it - would be to use average dice for regulars and ordinary dice for irregulars - harking back to old WRG rules here. For those who've never come across them, average dice have 1x2, 2x3, 2x4 and 1x5. So, for example, a Later Hoplite army would use average dice versus a Thracian army which would use ordinary dice; Early Imperial Romans would use average dice versus Gauls who would use ordinary dice.
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Post by stevie on Aug 23, 2018 17:53:31 GMT
The problem with using ‘average dice’ Martini is high combat factor elements such as Bd, Pk, and Sp will almost never get a double result...all they can do is push each other about, even if overlapped on both flanks (unless they are actually attacked in the flank and unable to recoil of course). This would make very loooong games... ...with a good chance of one of the players dying from old age before the end of the battle!  Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by darthvegeta800 on Apr 22, 2019 16:20:39 GMT
Sorry for reviving the thread but it seemed better than starting the discussion from scratch all over again.
Take in mind i'm an absolute newcomer but the one thing that has always kept me from playing DBA was the lack of an easy quality difference between troops.
Especially when wanting to use a quick and fast DBA system to replay some more historical battles this seems key.
Has anyone ever considered giving a limited pool of reroll counters?
Elite 3 (for instance Sacred Band), veteran 2 (Spartan Hoplites), trained 1 (average drille hoplite), levy 0 (emergency draft) for instance.
This allows to reflect veteran troops being more reliable however rerolls run out and you can still keep rolling badly reflecting the fact being veteran does not always mean victory.
It's more gamey. But I think it might also be more easy to handle. I just add tokens to the stands and remove as I go. Might be necessary to force people to use the reroll when applicable to avoid cheesyness.
Though as i'm likely doomed to solo play to replay battles... this is probably not going to be a problem I have.
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Post by lkmjbc on Apr 22, 2019 17:11:21 GMT
Sorry for reviving the thread but it seemed better than starting the discussion from scratch all over again. Take in mind i'm an absolute newcomer but the one thing that has always kept me from playing DBA was the lack of an easy quality difference between troops. Especially when wanting to use a quick and fast DBA system to replay some more historical battles this seems key. Has anyone ever considered giving a limited pool of reroll counters? Elite 3 (for instance Sacred Band), veteran 2 (Spartan Hoplites), trained 1 (average drille hoplite), levy 0 (emergency draft) for instance. This allows to reflect veteran troops being more reliable however rerolls run out and you can still keep rolling badly reflecting the fact being veteran does not always mean victory. It's more gamey. But I think it might also be more easy to handle. I just add tokens to the stands and remove as I go. Might be necessary to force people to use the reroll when applicable to avoid cheesyness. Though as i'm likely doomed to solo play to replay battles... this is probably not going to be a problem I have. An excellent idea. You could also use different colors for poor troops. An element with a poor counter would allow an enemy to expend it for a reroll against the element rated as poor. Joe Collins |
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Post by darthvegeta800 on Apr 22, 2019 17:28:08 GMT
Sorry for reviving the thread but it seemed better than starting the discussion from scratch all over again. Take in mind i'm an absolute newcomer but the one thing that has always kept me from playing DBA was the lack of an easy quality difference between troops. Especially when wanting to use a quick and fast DBA system to replay some more historical battles this seems key. Has anyone ever considered giving a limited pool of reroll counters? Elite 3 (for instance Sacred Band), veteran 2 (Spartan Hoplites), trained 1 (average drille hoplite), levy 0 (emergency draft) for instance. This allows to reflect veteran troops being more reliable however rerolls run out and you can still keep rolling badly reflecting the fact being veteran does not always mean victory. It's more gamey. But I think it might also be more easy to handle. I just add tokens to the stands and remove as I go. Might be necessary to force people to use the reroll when applicable to avoid cheesyness. Though as i'm likely doomed to solo play to replay battles... this is probably not going to be a problem I have. An excellent idea. You could also use different colors for poor troops. An element with a poor counter would allow an enemy to expend it for a reroll against the element rated as poor. Joe Collins Indeed though i'd like to keep it simple. In that case I'd say the reroll can only be used when facing a unit of lesser quality. So for instance Elite can use it against veteran, trained and levy. Just because i'd like to keep DBA simple and quick. I am used ot reading rulebooks but the DBA ones are a slog. Dry as can be. But I suspect if I were to start using them actively... which I hope to soon do solo, they'd stick. The only big thing I always found bad was the lack of unit quality differentiation. I could field the hardened veterans of Hannibal against newly drafted Romans and they'd perform the same. Granted this would make army building much harder and for tournament play it might be contraproductive. Still I would have loved to have seen some optional rules for it in the rulebook. |
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Post by hammurabi70 on Apr 22, 2019 21:33:34 GMT
Version 1 had a method of quality differentiation. My preference is simply that higher quality wins drawn combat results. Rerolls really mess with the odds.
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Post by primuspilus on Apr 22, 2019 23:03:29 GMT
Some good ideas here. I tend to think of quality scaling the troop scale. So a larger body of poor quality troops is represented by a single stand, while a smaller number of good troops is also represented by a single stand, likely with fewer ranks. On occasion that doesn't represent sufficient granularity. In this situation I would represent poor quality solid foot by rating them as fast for combat. As is the case for camp followers who sally. Then for very poor quality foot you have horde. But as Uncle Joe (Stalin) pointed out, when it comes to Hordes, "quantity has a quality all its own" ... |
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Post by darthvegeta800 on Apr 23, 2019 12:28:05 GMT
Some good ideas here. I tend to think of quality scaling the troop scale. So a larger body of poor quality troops is represented by a single stand, while a smaller number of good troops is also represented by a single stand, likely with fewer ranks. On occasion that doesn't represent sufficient granularity. In this situation I would represent poor quality solid foot by rating them as fast for combat. As is the case for camp followers who sally. Then for very poor quality foot you have horde. But as Uncle Joe (Stalin) pointed out, when it comes to Hordes, "quantity has a quality all its own" ... Sometimes in some ways. If you look at Wattling Street or Thermopylae context is all. Quality tends to trump quantity if well prepared. You also need enough quantity... and the morale to keep rolling them into the grinder. But especially on a grand strategic scale or longterm conflict quantity can start to painfully outpace quality. |
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Post by jim1973 on Apr 23, 2019 21:17:04 GMT
I am used ot reading rulebooks but the DBA ones are a slog. Dry as can be. But I suspect if I were to start using them actively... which I hope to soon do solo, they'd stick. Welcome to the forum! A little hint on learning the rules is to watch a few of Tony Aguilar's videos on Youtube. Makes the rules much easier to understand and you get a feel for how the game should flow as well as a crash course in tactics. Cheers Jim |
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Post by darthvegeta800 on Apr 24, 2019 13:53:17 GMT
I am used ot reading rulebooks but the DBA ones are a slog. Dry as can be. But I suspect if I were to start using them actively... which I hope to soon do solo, they'd stick. Welcome to the forum! A little hint on learning the rules is to watch a few of Tony Aguilar's videos on Youtube. Makes the rules much easier to understand and you get a feel for how the game should flow as well as a crash course in tactics. Cheers Jim Thanks for the tip. I actually have been subbed to him for ages. Though that was more as I was looking up some visual confirmation about basing DBX style. He has a lot of good content it seems I plan to eventually sit down and watch a few battles. Atm still working on some Greeks. Trying to get some backlog 1/72 Greeks and Persians finished so that specific topic (Greek and Persian Wars) is done. Then rules. Then solo play. Then slowly start working on the 1/72 Punic Wars kits i got. |
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Post by Baldie on Apr 24, 2019 20:19:58 GMT
Most of you probably know but Lat has a good flip on quality.
Elite on a D6 roll of 1-3 you add 1
Ordinary on a D6 roll you use what you rolled
Mediocre on a D6 roll of 4-6 you minus 1
That said there is a lot more ways to get +/- to your roll and units get between 2-4 hits so one roll is not always as critical as in DBA
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Post by primuspilus on Apr 24, 2019 20:22:51 GMT
Baldie, you may only want those to apply against superior/inferior. Elite Blades in DBA v3 is a perpetual motion machine.
I use this:
Veterans: MAY reroll any raw '2' result in combat.
Levies: MUST reroll a raw '5' in combat.
Has some effect, but it is far from overpowering.
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