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Post by BrianNZ on Jun 19, 2017 23:22:19 GMT
Page 8, "Command distance is........., on a Difficult Hill, or in or beyond a Wood,Oasis or Dunes"
If part of a base is "on" a difficult hill or "in" a wood,oasis or dune, is the base within 8 Bw or 4 Bw Command Distance ?
i.e. the base is half in good going and half in an oasis and the General is 6 Bw away and has a direct line of sight to the base does it cost 1 or 2 pips to move?
Thanks
Brian
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Post by lkmjbc on Jun 20, 2017 17:04:18 GMT
1 pip.
Joe Collins
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Post by BrianNZ on Jun 20, 2017 20:53:07 GMT
Thanks Joe.
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Post by twrnz on Jun 28, 2017 19:37:47 GMT
I'm sorry but I disagree with Joe's answer. I've actually discussed it off list with Joe as well.
To answer your question you need to look at page 6 under Area Terrain Features where it states: "An element only partly in GOOD GOING is treated as in the other going."
It does not say for combat purposes, so it must be for all purposes. Therefore, for the purposes of command a stand that is partly on a difficult hill or partly in wood etc it is counted as in the difficult hill and the command range is reduced.
There are arguments for why this isn't ideal. However, to have not impacting command range there would need to be an exception, and there isn't. If you have one toe in or your entire base excluding a mm you are in the other going for movement, combat and command range.
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Post by BrianNZ on Jun 28, 2017 22:11:08 GMT
To answer your question you need to look at page 6 under Area Terrain Features where it states: "An element only partly in GOOD GOING is treated as in the other going." Well spotted Keith. This should be placed in the FAQ immediately Joe. Thanks |
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Post by stevie on Jun 29, 2017 0:14:03 GMT
Sorry, but I disagree with twrnz’s disagreement of Joe Collins’ agreement (which sounds complicated, but bare with me). Here is the full reading of the rule on page 8 paragraph 7:- Extra PIP costs [8.7]: Except in the side’s first bound, a move that uses a PIP uses up an extra PIP for each of the two following cases that apply:
(a) If the moving element or group includes any Scythed Chariots not moving into contact with enemy, Elephants, Hordes,
War Wagons, Artillery, denizens or camp followers, or is an element currently garrisoning a city, fort or camp.
(b) If the moving element is not the general’s element and either its general’s element has been lost or is entirely in a BUA, camp,
Wood, Oasis, Marsh or Gully or if the element or group to be moved starts more than command distance from its general.
Command distance is 20 BW if entirely Light Horse. Otherwise, it is 8 BW, but is reduced to 4 BW for troops entirely:-
beyond the crest of any Hill, beyond a BUA or a camp, on a Difficult Hill, or in or beyond a Wood, Oasis or Dunes. The relative bit is under ‘Command Distance’. Being the irritating and annoying rule lawyer that I am, I assume that all the first part of this sentence (i.e. “Otherwise, it is 8 BW, but is reduced to to 4 BW for troops entirely…”) is also applied the the second part of the sentence. This would make sense from a realistic point of view, when issuing orders to messengers:- “Where is the third cohort? Ah, I see some of them, sticking out of that wooded hill. The rest must be nearby. Tell them to move to the right and engage”. Whereas:- “Where is the third cohort? I can’t see any of them. They must be entirely within that that wooded hill somewhere. Go and find them (costing an extra PIP) and tell them to move to the right and engage”. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest June 2017 FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
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Post by macbeth on Jun 29, 2017 2:08:13 GMT
Thanks Stevie - I am with you. I had been playing it this way up to now and was sure that I wasn't wrong in the assumption. However on seeing twrnz's post I was already facepalming and shouting D'oh!!!.
I was going to check through the rules and discuss with my fellows in two weeks time when we gathered for the next instalment of "South China Warning Post" but at least now I know where I should be looking for the supports for my position
Cheers
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Post by twrnz on Jun 29, 2017 6:10:14 GMT
Command distance is 20 BW if entirely Light Horse. Otherwise, it is 8 BW, but is reduced to 4 BW for troops entirely:- beyond the crest of any Hill, beyond a BUA or a camp, on a Difficult Hill, or in or beyond a Wood, Oasis or Dunes. The relative bit is under ‘Command Distance’. Being the irritating and annoying rule lawyer that I am, I assume that all the first part of this sentence (i.e. “Otherwise, it is 8 BW, but is reduced to to 4 BW for troops entirely…”) is also applied the the second part of the sentence. Alas, Stevie I am not a rules lawyer. However, your quote of the rules, the first part above isn't entirely consistent with the rules. You have added a ":-" after entirely. I point this out for clarity only. If Phil had added one additional word the meaning would have been clear, but he didn't. Was that for a reason, an oversight, or something else? I don't know. My point in this is it isn't as clear as it could be, and it is easy to assume an intent. There are arguments for and against as I alluded to. Brian, I agree it would be an ideal one for the FAQ file, but the remit of the FAQ is not to modify the rules and only issue a point to the FAQ on consensus. There are several points we can't reach consensus on which I personally would like to see clarified first, but have become "stuck". |
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Post by lkmjbc on Jun 29, 2017 17:35:50 GMT
We can certainly bring this up before the FAQ committee. No promises on any outcome.
Joe Collins
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Post by medievalthomas on Jun 29, 2017 17:53:18 GMT
I think "entirely" implies it must be completly hidden to effect Command Distance - which makes the most real world sense. Your only a rule if:
1) your ruling is based on tricky word play that defies real world logic
2) and the ruling in some way harms my troops!
I assume we all agree that Command Distance is 20 for LH in all circumstances.
TomT
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Post by bob on Jul 3, 2017 23:13:24 GMT
I am afraid I have lost the train of thought in this thread. Let me state how I read the rule and someone tell me where I am wrong. I have broken the last part of the command rule into sections for easier reading.
Except in the side’s first bound, a move that uses a PIP uses up an extra PIP for each of the two following cases that apply:
(a) If the moving element or group includes any Scythed Chariots not moving into contact with enemy, Elephants, Hordes, War Wagons, Artillery, denizens or camp followers, or is an element currently garrisoning a city, fort or camp.
(b) If the moving element is not the general’s element and ... the element or group to be moved starts more than command distance from its general.
Command distance is ... 8 BW, but is reduced to 4 BW for troops
1. entirely beyond the crest of any Hill,
2. beyond a BUA or a camp,
3. on a Difficult Hill,
4. or in or beyond a Wood, Oasis or Dunes.
Point 4 is the one that applies.
If an element is partly in an Oasis and it is partly in Good Going then we apply this rule.
"An element only partly in GOOD GOING is treated as in the other going. "
Thus to answer the original question
"i.e. the base is half in good going and half in an oasis and the General is 6 Bw away and has a direct line of sight to the base does it cost 1 or 2 pips to move? "
2 PIPs because it is in the Oasis (unless camels I assume)
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Post by macbeth on Jul 4, 2017 7:04:20 GMT
I am afraid I have lost the train of thought in this thread. Let me state how I read the rule and someone tell me where I am wrong. I have broken the last part of the command rule into sections for easier reading. Except in the side’s first bound, a move that uses a PIP uses up an extra PIP for each of the two following cases that apply: (a) If the moving element or group includes any Scythed Chariots not moving into contact with enemy, Elephants, Hordes, War Wagons, Artillery, denizens or camp followers, or is an element currently garrisoning a city, fort or camp. (b) If the moving element is not the general’s element and ... the element or group to be moved starts more than command distance from its general. Command distance is ... 8 BW, but is reduced to 4 BW for troops 1. entirely beyond the crest of any Hill, 2. beyond a BUA or a camp, 3. on a Difficult Hill, 4. or in or beyond a Wood, Oasis or Dunes. Point 4 is the one that applies. If an element is partly in an Oasis and it is partly in Good Going then we apply this rule. "An element only partly in GOOD GOING is treated as in the other going. " Thus to answer the original question "i.e. the base is half in good going and half in an oasis and the General is 6 Bw away and has a direct line of sight to the base does it cost 1 or 2 pips to move? " 2 PIPs because it is in the Oasis (unless camels I assume) I'm sorry Bob but if we are to follow this path to its logical conclusion then Camels in an Oasis or Dunes being in Good Going is a red herring
the sentence you have referred to above does not suggest that being in good going in any way affects the command distance so therefore Camels in partially in Dunes or an Oasis are in Dunes or Oasis and so therefore have their command distance reduced.
It is either that or it is a separate matter to determine whether or not you are IN a FEATURE or IN a particular type of GOING - but that way lies madness.
Still I find it difficult to believe that an element of Cm lined up beside an element of Ax both with their rear edge inside an Oasis would have differing command distance (and here we find the madness 
I still lean towards the "entirely in" interpretation for command with partially in for everything else as it makes sense in my head for issues like the one above - but you do make a convincing point and when it all comes out in the wash I will run with the FAQ crowd
cheers
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Post by goldenhord on Sept 12, 2017 11:32:33 GMT
I agree with Bob that concerning command distance :
"An element only partly in GOOD GOING is treated as in the other going. "
however as it seems illogical and unrealistic sometimes, i would suggest to apply the same rule as element shooting visibility in bad going, you have to be within 1/2 BW to be able to shoot, if not you could not view anything you could not shoot.
If you apply the same rule for command, if you are less than 1/2 BW from the edge of the bad going you applies standard visibility rules 8W , if you are more than 1/2 BW from the edge with the element you apply 4BW.
any comment ? we stick teh rule and the logic.
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Post by Simon on Sept 12, 2017 18:20:26 GMT
I agree with Bob that concerning command distance : "An element only partly in GOOD GOING is treated as in the other going. " however as it seems illogical and unrealistic sometimes, i would suggest to apply the same rule as element shooting visibility in bad going, you have to be within 1/2 BW to be able to shoot, if not you could not view anything you could not shoot. If you apply the same rule for command, if you are less than 1/2 BW from the edge of the bad going you applies standard visibility rules 8W , if you are more than 1/2 BW from the edge with the element you apply 4BW. any comment ? we stick teh rule and the logic. I don't claim to have the right answer but I am just wondering how valid it is to equate the issues of shooting from terrain to giving orders to troops - and getting them to respond correctly and quickly - when they are in terrain, even if partially. I think it might be more than a question of visibility and much more about communication. Regards Simon |
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Post by zygul on Sept 13, 2017 8:36:27 GMT
I think that rule (b) in Player Initiative Point Dicing mainly refers to the situation/location of the general issuing the command. Thus, if the general has been eliminated it costs an extra pip. If the general is entirely in a BUA, (or if the general is entirely) in a camp, (or if the general is entirely) in a wood, (or if the general is entirely) in an oasis, (or if the general is entirely) in a marsh (or if the general is entirely) in a gully it costs an extra pip. If the non-general element/group receiving the command is more than command range from its general it costs an extra pip.
The BW range of command distance depends on the situation/location of the element/group receiving the command. Regardless of what terrain the issuing general is in, command distance is always 20 BW for LH and is normally 8 BW for other elements. However, this is reduced to 4 BW if the non-LH element/group receiving the command is entirely beyond (out of sight 'behind') the crest of any hill (from where the general is located) or (partially but not entirely [because the word 'entirely' is omitted]) beyond a BUA or a camp (from where the general is located). An element/group (partially) on a difficult hill has a command distance of 4 BW. An element/group (partially) in or (partially) beyond a wood, oasis or dunes has a command range of 4 BW.
The rules state that extra pip costs apply to each of the two cases, (a) and (b), so it could cost up to 3 pips to issue command to certain elements/groups. For example this would be the case when moving a garrison whose general has been eliminated.
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