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Post by felixs on Jun 8, 2017 9:39:44 GMT
Dear all,
having converted my Feudal Spanish to DBA, I am now able to do mirror matches (inter-feudal war) with them.
Feudal Spanish consists of Kn, Ps, Sp and a LH or two. Terrain tends to be relatively dense, because of the high ammount of Ps. Open ground is usually not very wide and deployment of the heavy troops is often quite challenging. While it is simple to see what to do with the Kn (charge!) the Ps (support and skirmish), the LH (support, skirmish and threaten), the Sp give me a headache.
This gets worse once you have one sides general on foot as a Bd, which has very similar problems to Sp, arguable worse in this match-up.
Problem: The Spear seem nearly useless. In the open, they get slaughtered by Kn. In BG, they do not get their side-support bonus, and the -2 makes them vulnerable to Ps (as it should be, of course). So there is really nowhere to go.
I have tried to build a line of three Sp at the center and Kn at the flanks, but odds are not good for the Sp. They need a double overlap on Kn to really threaten them, but that needs quite a bit of luck with the dice. Success ratio is quite bad, about 1:3 or so.
Local distribution of numbers is of course important in any DBA game (and decisive in mirror matches). But the Sp are mostly too slow to not be out-manoeuvred by the Kn.
The result so far is, that one Sp guards the camp (very useful for that) and the other two Sp try to hide somewhere safe. Keeping them near the camp to maybe catch an overly rash Ps or LH usually seems like a good, if strange, idea.
Does anyone have good ideas of what to do about this?
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Post by timurilank on Jun 8, 2017 14:03:38 GMT
Dear all, having converted my Feudal Spanish to DBA, I am now able to do mirror matches (inter-feudal war) with them. Feudal Spanish consists of Kn, Ps, Sp and a LH or two. Terrain tends to be relatively dense, because of the high ammount of Ps. Open ground is usually not very wide and deployment of the heavy troops is often quite challenging. While it is simple to see what to do with the Kn (charge!) the Ps (support and skirmish), the LH (support, skirmish and threaten), the Sp give me a headache. This gets worse once you have one sides general on foot as a Bd, which has very similar problems to Sp, arguable worse in this match-up. Problem: The Spear seem nearly useless. In the open, they get slaughtered by Kn. In BG, they do not get their side-support bonus, and the -2 makes them vulnerable to Ps (as it should be, of course). So there is really nowhere to go. I have tried to build a line of three Sp at the center and Kn at the flanks, but odds are not good for the Sp. They need a double overlap on Kn to really threaten them, but that needs quite a bit of luck with the dice. Success ratio is quite bad, about 1:3 or so. Local distribution of numbers is of course important in any DBA game (and decisive in mirror matches). But the Sp are mostly too slow to not be out-manoeuvred by the Kn. The result so far is, that one Sp guards the camp (very useful for that) and the other two Sp try to hide somewhere safe. Keeping them near the camp to maybe catch an overly rash Ps or LH usually seems like a good, if strange, idea. Does anyone have good ideas of what to do about this? From your brief list of troop types you have made two III/35a Feudal Spanish 718 – 950 AD.
You have marked well the downside of spears fighting in ‘hilly’ terrain. Some of my longest historical matches were fought in hilly country – 2nd century BC Spain and the recent Invasion of Hispania.
I no longer use maximum size features, but prefer ones of a medium size. These are easier to place within a quadrant and do not overlook the effect of difficult hills and wood have of reducing the command distance.
Have you used a river in your test games?
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Post by felixs on Jun 8, 2017 15:36:52 GMT
Thank you.
I have two armies for both II/35a and II/35b and only a few elements away from II/35c.
Maximum size features have not been deployed. Everything was medium sized, which was hard enough to fit in in some cases.
We used a river in two games. The main effect has been that it was harder to maneuvre the Sp and easier for the Kn to catch them disadvantaged.
What armies are you referring to? Ancient Spanish (II/39) does not have these problems. I have played quite a few games with II/39a and II/39b and found them very balanced and a joy to handle. You are probable thinking of Carthaginians, Romans and maybe Italians?
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Post by timurilank on Jun 8, 2017 16:00:55 GMT
Thank you. I have two armies for both II/35a and II/35b and only a few elements away from II/35c. Maximum size features have not been deployed. Everything was medium sized, which was hard enough to fit in in some cases. We used a river in two games. The main effect has been that it was harder to maneuvre the Sp and easier for the Kn to catch them disadvantaged. What armies are you referring to? Ancient Spanish (II/39) does not have these problems. I have played quite a few games with II/39a and II/39b and found them very balanced and a joy to handle. You are probable thinking of Carthaginians, Romans and maybe Italians? I am surprised by the river. With the exception of a paltry river, these become worrisome terrain for cavalry and easily defended even by slow moving spear. The ‘b’ list should be nice as they include CB.
The early Spanish battles were fought against Rome (2nd century BC) and these included the Lusitanians, Iberians and Celtiberians.
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Post by felixs on Jun 8, 2017 16:47:22 GMT
I have no figures for the Cb, they are on my to-do list. So far, Ps is the only option.
Of course, Sp can defend a riverbank, but they can do little else, also, the risk that the river might be paltry is not to be underestimated. But yes, defending a riverbank (or defending a gentle hill) makes Sp against Kn better.
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Post by mellis1644 on Jun 9, 2017 13:40:58 GMT
Spears are the hardest troop to use in the armies you have. They have no easy/obvious match up's for targeted opposing troops- other than the stand off vs. the other spears. So to deal with them my suggestion would be use them as the core of your 'battle line' aka bait to bring your oppoents forces close. Try to bring their into a killing zone, where your other troops can hit their flanks and deal with them. You don't want to use them too aggressive but in this role they have value. Defending good going from hills etc. is another use depending on terrain hugging PS. Oh and yes this is what I like about DBA - these types of challenges.  |
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Post by felixs on Jun 9, 2017 14:12:12 GMT
Thank you.
Yes, it is a very interesting match-up and I am not complaining.
I like to use less-than-perfect armies for exactly these reasons: They make you think about how to turn your liabilities into assets. It seldom works, but if it does, it is great fun. Plus, DBA allows for a considerable ammount of dice luck, so one can always hope...
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Post by felixs on Sept 6, 2017 20:48:24 GMT
I have now played a few more games with Feudal Spanish vs. Feudal Spanish (mostly the a list).
It is a very strange setup and the Sp are pretty useless, except for guarding the camp and providing overlaps - which, of course, is something.
The Ps turn out to be monsters often, even harrassing Kn. But that is dangerous, even though it works well sometimes.
Can anyone tell me something about how Andalusians vs. Feudal Spanish is?
From looking at the army lists, the Andalusians seem to be seriously out-knighted. Is it an interesting match-up? Am I right in assuming that the balance is very much in favour of the Feudal Spanish?
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