Towards DBA 3.1

4Ax: +1 in CC in GGo vs Sp, Solid Bd or supported Pk.

Does this not accomplish the same thing but with a fraction of the overhead? Then allow 3Ax the option of 1BW recoil?

Stevie is correct: if survivability is what you are after for 4Ax, then 1BW recoil doesn't cut it on its own.

An interesting counter proposal primuspilus.
Although I would suggest that this +1 is also applied in rough as well as good going, otherwise Sp and Bd would prefer to fight Ax in there rather than outside.

Justifying just why 4Ax gets a +1 against Sp/Pk/Bd won’t be easy.
But it could be because 4Ax are agile and flexible, and are able to temporarily adopt a denser formation when facing close order troops. They don’t get this +1 against Wb as such a dense formation would make them as brittle a heavy foot. Staying in a looser formation, without the +1, allows them to recoil and ‘roll with the punch’ instead of being broken. While in bad going and when against Ps or other troops they need the looser formation to be able to fight these opponents effectively (and it is assumed they are already in a denser formation when facing a mounted).
In short, they are flexible enough to adopt the best formation depending upon their current opponent.

Here are some charts for comparison.
(Because Ax are so easily recoiled, items in blue are the most usual situation)

Chances out 36 of the Ax being doubled and destroyed under the current DBA system:-

                                              Ax vs. Pk        Ax vs. Sp/Bd     Ax vs. Pk   Ax vs. Sp    Ax vs Bd    Ax vs. Ax/Wb
                                          in good going     in good going     in rough    in rough     in rough     in any going
Ax overlapped twice      =                21                  18                12             15            18             12
Ax overlapped once      =                15                   12                 6              9             12              6
Ax with no overlaps       =                9                    6                  2              4               6              2
Ax overlap enemy once  =                 6                    4                  1              2              4              1
Ax overlap enemy twice  =                4                    2                  0              1              2              0
(No matter how far an individual Ax recoils, it exposes it’s neighbour to an overlap, causing them to be slaughtered)


Chances out 36 of the Ax being doubled and destroyed with Ax having a +1 against Sp, Bd, or Pk:-

                                              Ax vs. Pk        Ax vs. Sp/Bd     Ax vs. Pk   Ax vs. Sp    Ax vs Bd    Ax vs. Ax/Wb
                                           in good going    in good going     in rough    in rough     in rough     in any going
Ax overlapped twice      =               15                  12                   6             9             12               12
Ax overlapped once      =                 9                    6                   2             4              6                6
Ax with no overlaps       =                4                   2                    0             1              2                2
Ax overlap enemy once  =                 2                   1                   1             0              0                 1
Ax overlap enemy twice  =                1                   0                   0             0              0                 0
(I have given the Ax the +1 against Pk in rough. Without the +1, the unsupported Pk chances are the same as Ax vs. Ax/Wb)


Chances out 36 of the Ax being destroyed if the opposing heavy foot rolls an even dice (but 'evade' 1 BW on an odd roll):-

                                              Ax vs. Pk        Ax vs. Sp/Bd     Ax vs. Pk   Ax vs. Sp    Ax vs Bd    Ax vs. Ax/Wb
                                           in good going    in good going     in rough    in rough     in rough     in any going
Ax overlapped twice      =               12                   9                   6             9              9               12
Ax overlapped once      =                 9                    6                   3             6              6                6
Ax with no overlaps       =                6                   3                   1             3              3                 2
Ax overlap enemy once  =                 3                   3                   1             1              3                 1
Ax overlap enemy twice  =                3                   1                   0             1              1                 0
(Sp and Bd have an almost identical chance of doubling Ax in rough due to the quirks of the two dice combat system)


Overall, I still prefer the “if doubled half the time they evade 1 BW” method.
This gives lower double overlapped destroyed chances, and would apply to both 3Ax and 4Ax alike.
And 3Ax could still get the “choose to recoil or evade 1BW” ability, making them a bit like beefed up Ps, which in reality is exactly what they were (the 4Ax advantage is they are solid, so don’t recoil quite so often).



Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes

I've been sitting back and following the development of this thread and as an overview I can see that the need for clarity and errors asside,some suggestions can be defined as rule development (or tweeking) to house rule material but who is really in a position to judge what is worthy of inclusion and implement any of the changes in the future?

I have my own idea of one rule option which I've only kept as a suggested house rule to my local group and that is to allow Lh and Ps to break off in combat if they have a greater move distance than their opponnents...but this has only remained as on the debate list.😊

David:
Certainly a sensible answer... if only it were that easy...
Phil and Sue will probably be adamant that all Ax function the same with little variation. They will also require a good narrative from history to justify any differences. While the idea of 4Ax fighting better with side support and 3Ax having an evade option seems logical... they have already discounted it during the development of 3.

I think perhaps we need to examine the historical narratives we have for 4Ax against other heavy infantry.

At Cunaxa... the 4Ax broke on impact... (or perhaps before)
At Chaeronea... the 4Ax withdrew in good order and sucked the Greek Hoplites into a trap.
At Cannae... the 4Ax withdrew (or were pushed back) slowly and pulled the Romans into a trap.

What other examples of 4Ax vs non-warband infantry are there?

Joe Collins

Joe, I must admit that I am somewhat perplexed.

We all know that Ax are not correct (just compare their historical performance at Cannae with their survival rate in DBA), yet you are telling us that Phil and Sue Barker will not contemplate changing them.

So what is the point of this thread?

Nonetheless, you asked that we need to examine the historical narratives we have for Ax against other heavy infantry. Actual confrontations between these two troop types are very rarely mentioned by ancient historians, and all I can find is mostly anecdotal evidence collected together by modern researchers. I did originally have a long list of quotes from Duncan Heads “Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars”, 1982 edition, but people can read these for themselves (see Thureophoroi page 45 paragraph 8, Peltasts page 47 paragraph 5, Thracians page 51 paragraph 5, Illyrians page 52 paragraph 2, Spanish page 56 paragraph 3, and Samnites page 61 paragraphs 6 & 7).

Basically, Ps only fight at a distance, 3Ax are beefed-up and can fight at a distance or in close combat, and 4Ax are even more beefed-up (they are 3Ax with more discipline and training, helmets, standards, and regular officers). But they were all counted as ‘light troops’ that tried to fight at a distance with javelins, and stayed alive by being more mobile and able to evade an heavy infantry charge.

Chaeronea, 338 BC: “the 4Ax withdrew in good order and sucked the Greek Hoplites into a trap.”
Hang on…who says that the Macedonian Hypaspists were 4Ax?
Ah, of course, the DBA army lists!
I’m sure you remember the discussion about the Hypaspists here:
           fanaticus.boards.net/thread/520/alexander-hypaspists-blades
But even if people want to believe that the formidable elite foot of the Macedonian army were nothing more than weak helpless 4Ax who are no threat to anybody, then allowing them to recoil 1 BW will not reproduce “sucking the Greek Hoplites into a trap”.
Hoplites are spears…and spears do not pursue.

The only way in DBA to simulate this ‘faint flight’ is to dangle the Hypaspists with no flank protection in front of the hoplites, hoping they will take the bait and advance so as take advantage of the double overlap offered.
Of course, you’ll need an element that has a chance of surviving a double overlap…such as blades.

Cannae, 216 BC: “the 4Ax withdrew (or were pushed back) slowly and pulled the Romans into a trap.”
Yes they did…but they did it by surviving as they fell back, not by dying.
In DBA Ax are destroyed when overlapped by Bd 12 times out of 36 (that’s 33% of the time).
With a double overlap the Bd destroys the Ax 18 times out of 36 (that’s 50% of the time!).
And no matter how far back the Ax recoil, they will expose their neighbours to overlaps.

If the DBA portrayal of 4Ax is soooo accurate, why can’t we reproduce Cannae on our wargames table?
Unless of course DBA IS accurate, and it is history that is wrong……………….



Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes

Very well…give Phil and Sue the well supported example of the historical performance of Ax at Cannae when compared with their survivability in DBA.

Good grief…if Ax can’t perform properly in this battle, how can they perform properly in other battles?!

So give them the ‘modest’ change of allowing Ax to use their agility to recoil 1 BW half the time when doubled by heavy infantry.
(i.e. Doubled Ax in good or rough going recoil 1 BW from Spear, Pike or Blade whose die roll is odd, otherwise destroyed)
That would greatly increase their survivability and make Cannae possible.

Who knows, they might actually accept it.
With such a blatant example, perhaps they will reconsider.
Or maybe come up with some other solution of their own.
(I’ve always been an optimist…) 



Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, including the latest FAQ and the Quick Reference Sheets from the Society of Ancients:-
fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes