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Post by twrnz on Apr 21, 2017 22:01:57 GMT
Horde was not a troop type often voluntarily seen in games in earlier versions of DBA. For some time now my son has enjoyed running his Aztecs with six horde massed for impact, sometimes to good result. In all cases we have found them to produce excellent and balanced games against Tlaxcalans, though with high horde losses. Last weekend my son Aztecs enjoyed success against other Medieval armies in a small competition, winning the Medieval Section. Included in his success was defeating my own Wars of the Roses English, below. Therefore, with the loss of horde not counting towards army break, do people consider them a viable troop type? Do you see them most useful deployed together in numbers, including in deep formations, or more isolated stands? Would you take fast or solid horde if you had an option?
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Horde
Apr 21, 2017 23:14:12 GMT
Post by paulhannah on Apr 21, 2017 23:14:12 GMT
Hordes have been my favorite troop-type ever since they were introduced with that earlier edition of DBA. Maybe I feel as if I can relate to the sullen conscripts. (Grins.) Of course, as expendable, and either Fast or Solid, they they have fully come into their own in V-3. Oh, and not being QK'd if shot at is huge! The Horde rules are one of the reasons I'm so enamored with DBA-3. Absolutely, I consider them a viable troop type. How I use them depends on many factors, e.g. what the make-up of the rest of the army is, what my opponent is, terrain, etc. With my Sui Chinese Hordes (seen below in this posed photo), I often use them in the van as a "human wave" tactic, with Knights and other behind as a reserve to pick off enemy elements that pursue thru any destroyed Horde elements. It even works sometimes. With my Pergamenes, however, the 7Hd Citizen Militia (seen here below) is the main battleline, and I typically use it as such. You ask about which to take, Fast or Solid, if given a choice. Good question...dunno. But, if given a choice between Hordes and anything else, I always take the Hordes. How did the Aztec Hordes work in your games? And can you post more pics of them? That's one that's on my wish-list.
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Horde
Apr 22, 2017 0:14:19 GMT
Post by twrnz on Apr 22, 2017 0:14:19 GMT
Great photos Paul! Unfortunately I don't have other photos of my son's Aztecs.
I think the Sui horde would be ideal as a solid line, with good troops behind.
With respect to deployment my son often runs his Aztec fast horde in a block three wide and two deep, often on one flank. He uses the horde aggressively to support his attack by the remaining troops. The fast horde always move forward on turn one closing the gap with the enemy. During last weekend's competition he managed to win the Medieval Section and I think he lost nine stands in the two games he won and ten in the game he lost.
From my perspective I always find the Aztec horde stick to my troops. It just takes ages to get through them...
I almost forgot to add I'm in the process of rebasing a portion of my Post Mongol Samurai to make them Purple compliant. The army was mostly built for DBR. The rebasing project includes some horde. The town militia are only five per base in DBR but need to move to seven per base for DBA.
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Horde
Apr 22, 2017 8:52:01 GMT
via mobile
Post by Haardrada on Apr 22, 2017 8:52:01 GMT
I've seen a few posts recently where Hds have been an influence on the games.I used to dismiss the single 7Hd I have in some of my armies for what I considered a more useful element but now appreciate some of their qualities.They most certainly make a good garrison for a camp or BUA unless they can be recoiled by shooting.Their Solid status does add a little to their resilience.
The 5Hd is a different entity, used en-masse they could be a real problem,they flow through terrain and they can engage in TZds quickly,are tough to shift and count nothing to your opponents victory total if they kill them.I see that Aztec army only having 6 elements you can kill and they are fast too, so it would take some thought in how to counter it.
What I do see as disadvantages for Hd are the 2 pip cost to move after the 1st bound, so keeping them in a group would be more desirable.The recoil from shooting could be a problem too as it could break up the group (but could be a gamble facing the rapid 5Hd π).
The real problems for Hd are if caught in flank and rear especially from mounted or caught in Bad going as the reduced combat factor to 1 or less if overlapped.
Maybe their advantages out-weigh their disadvantages as they are expendable.π
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Post by twrnz on Apr 22, 2017 10:10:48 GMT
That's an interesting idea using horde as a garrison of a BUA, providing them a slight, but possibly critical, additional factor.
When fighting horde in the open your opponent has an interesting dilemma. Does he fight the horde with his best troops, despite knowing killing your horde gains him no game winning advantage, or does he use his worst troops risking possible casualties?
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Horde
Apr 22, 2017 14:04:59 GMT
Post by timurilank on Apr 22, 2017 14:04:59 GMT
I've seen a few posts recently where Hds have been an influence on the games.I used to dismiss the single 7Hd I have in some of my armies for what I considered a more useful element but now appreciate some of their qualities.They most certainly make a good garrison for a camp or BUA unless they can be recoiled by shooting.Their Solid status does add a little to their resilience. The 5Hd is a different entity, used en-masse they could be a real problem,they flow through terrain and they can engage in TZds quickly,are tough to shift and count nothing to your opponents victory total if they kill them.I see that Aztec army only having 6 elements you can kill and they are fast too, so it would take some thought in how to counter it. What I do see as disadvantages for Hd are the 2 pip cost to move after the 1st bound, so keeping them in a group would be more desirable.The recoil from shooting could be a problem too as it could break up the group (but could be a gamble facing the rapid 5Hd π). The real problems for Hd are if caught in flank and rear especially from mounted or caught in Bad going as the reduced combat factor to 1 or less if overlapped. Maybe their advantages out-weigh their disadvantages as they are expendable.π My experience with Hd is limited to the Sassanid βbβ sub-list. The two Hd are surprisingly tough to beat with standard infantry types so they are effective at holding down enemy troops which can be used elsewhere. In those games, the horde was grouped with the elephant which simple punched holes in the enemy line. On the downside, they pursue 1BW which can leave the horde clueless on the following bound if you score low. I will be using the Sassanid βbβ list for the next series of games.
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Horde
Apr 22, 2017 21:39:30 GMT
Post by martin on Apr 22, 2017 21:39:30 GMT
I've seen a few posts recently where Hds have been an influence on the games........... Maybe their advantages out-weigh their disadvantages as they are expendable.π Having played against Early Libyan (6 x 5 Hd) and with Aztecs I can confirm that they're deadly. They pin you down, waste your PIPs and keep you busy at no risk while the game is won elsewhere. Much fun.
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Horde
Apr 23, 2017 23:56:32 GMT
Post by Spitzicles on Apr 23, 2017 23:56:32 GMT
I was very impressed by the Aztecs winning the Medieval competition with an army with so much Hd! That is a great effort. Well done that man!!
I don't have a Hd army on my "to paint" list, and haven't fielded any to date. But have fought them on a couple of occasions. At Landwaster (2016) against my ineffective Early Armenians, the Early Samurai Hd were quite effective and the game was a draw. But at CanCon (2017) in an historical match up, my Sea Peoples totally destroyed the Early Libyans. In my experience Hd are tough to kill but if they're not supported by a stronger troop type thats all they are - tough to kill.
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Horde
Apr 24, 2017 8:41:46 GMT
Post by scottrussell on Apr 24, 2017 8:41:46 GMT
If there is a problem with horde heavy armies in open competitions, i.e. up against a fairly tight time limit and playing opposing powerful armies, it is the risk of draws. By the time your opponent has hacked his way through your massed peasants, there is no time left for a proper fight. Playing massed horde is a bit like playing an opponent who plays really slowly or sets up behind a river. One is inclined not to take any silly risks and accept the draw. Although with hordes you may have a lot of fun, you are likely to end up somewhere near the middle of the results table. I think UK experience of horde in DBA 3.0 tends to support this perception. Scott
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Horde
Apr 24, 2017 11:54:08 GMT
Post by twrnz on Apr 24, 2017 11:54:08 GMT
If there is a problem with horde heavy armies in open competitions, i.e. up against a fairly tight time limit and playing opposing powerful armies, it is the risk of draws. By the time your opponent has hacked his way through your massed peasants... While I see your argument in the games over the weekend the Aztec player had no drawn games, each round was allocated an hour. I wonder if draws are more likely in UK competitions as I understand they are sometimes less than an hour in length. I could be wrong of course. On the topic of draws I think the scoring used at Cancon is considerably better than what we have used locally. At Cancon a draw is much the same as a loss. It effectively removes any desire to seek a draw to gain points, at least for players that are trying to gain a high score.
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Horde
Apr 24, 2017 19:53:51 GMT
Post by medievalthomas on Apr 24, 2017 19:53:51 GMT
It took some convincing to get Phil to give up the Hordes Shocked by Shooting rule. Though why they Recoil from Shooting but not CC is a gamer mystery.
Interesting that draws still occur. Early detractors of 3.0 insisted games would hardly take 15 minutes due to the increased BW movement.
TomT
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Horde
Apr 25, 2017 1:27:16 GMT
Post by twrnz on Apr 25, 2017 1:27:16 GMT
It took some convincing to get Phil to give up the Hordes Shocked by Shooting rule. Though why they Recoil from Shooting but not CC is a gamer mystery. I think the disruption shooting can create is actually good from a game and historical perspective. A great host can be disrupted by fire and then stall in front of an enemy. In the Aztec games I've played over the years a three wide block, once broken up, requires six PIPs to get moving forward again.
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Horde
Apr 25, 2017 4:48:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by Haardrada on Apr 25, 2017 4:48:52 GMT
It took some convincing to get Phil to give up the Hordes Shocked by Shooting rule. Though why they Recoil from Shooting but not CC is a gamer mystery. I think the disruption shooting can create is actually good from a game and historical perspective. A great host can be disrupted by fire and then stall in front of an enemy. In the Aztec games I've played over the years a three wide block, once broken up, requires six PIPs to get moving forward again. Just a thought here,would an element of the front rank of such a six block be destroyed if forced to recoil if the rear element has not been shot at ?Or does it recoil as to make room as the rule states on page 12?
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Horde
Apr 25, 2017 5:24:01 GMT
Post by twrnz on Apr 25, 2017 5:24:01 GMT
In the situation I described the horde were two deep. The front element recoils, the second is pushed back.
The problems begin when there are three elements deep. Then the front elements is eliminated as the second element can't push back the third. That's the same with most elements though.
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Horde
Apr 25, 2017 6:35:19 GMT
Post by twrnz on Apr 25, 2017 6:35:19 GMT
Finally finished the first of the rebasing of my Japanese town militia for IV/59b (7Hd), just in time for this evening's games. They have been previously based for DBR where they were classed as Hd(F) and had only five figures per base. Despite many DBR games they were usually not engaged. In DBA they will be in the front line so they should actually get into action! Next project the Ikko-Ikki (5Hd)...
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