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Post by lkmjbc on Jan 23, 2017 22:13:11 GMT
Here is stab at it... Threat ZoneThe area 1 BW deep in front of any edge of a War Wagon or the front edge of any other element, or the area inside 1 BW of any point of a camp, city or garrisoned fort is its Threat Zone (TZ). An element or group which is at least partially inside or whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its far edge are considered in a TZ and can move only: (a) to line up its front edge with the enemy generating the TZ or (b) to advance into or towards contact with the enemy generating the TZ or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. Elements or Groups respond only to TZs in which they start or to the first they enter. TZs do not affect outcome moves. This I think fixes the side of threat zone issue and any troubles with "cascading threat zones" Thoughts. Bad news btw about the FAQ... www.pehub.com/2016/12/leeds-equity-scoops-four-companies-including-pe-hubbuyouts-insider/#As I am head of the FAQ team... it will be delayed... On a further down note... the only damned UCG property that was cool... Gassbuddy.com... we didn't buy. On a more positive note... I have threatened Dan Oswald with bodily harm if he buys another company inside of six months. We barely have integrated our last purchase from April 2016. I am seven years older... but I lift and run. He just does crossfit. I think I can take him. Joe Collins
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Post by medievalthomas on Jan 23, 2017 22:45:22 GMT
The FAQ team takes a very long time to determine anything (and even longer if we wait for a Phil answer - which may never come). In addition all decisions have to be unanimous and we often cannot get unanimity - so nothing gets decided.
That is why on matters not clearly covered by the rules, I give my interp which applies to any game or tournament I'm running (which is quite a lot). If others adopt it great, if not I guess they can just mark down the position of the elements and await a ruling in the future.
Often (but not always) I can persuade the FAQ committee to adopt as "official" my interp (I'm on the committee). Sometimes they cannot reach a decision so I just keep enforcing the interp as stated. Once settled I update D3H2 and A Game of Fire and Ice to explicity cover the point to so gamers can get a final clear answer.
I've given my suggestion and so far feel its preferable to "moving multiple reactions". Still pondering though.
TomT
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Post by stevie on Jan 23, 2017 23:07:46 GMT
Well I like it (but then I would say that wouldn’t I). What do others think?
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Post by Dangun on Jan 24, 2017 2:13:29 GMT
Here is stab at it... Threat ZoneThe area 1 BW deep in front of any edge of a War Wagon or the front edge of any other element, or the area inside 1 BW of any point of a camp, city or garrisoned fort is its Threat Zone (TZ). An element or group which is at least partially inside or whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its far edge are considered in a TZ and can move only: (a) to line up its front edge with the enemy generating the TZ or (b) to advance into or towards contact with the enemy generating the TZ or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move. Elements or Groups respond only to TZs in which they start or to the first they enter. TZs do not affect outcome moves. This I think fixes the side of threat zone issue and any troubles with "cascading threat zones" Thoughts. I'll take the other side of this argument. I don't think there is a problem to fix, (other than clarity.) I offer two reasons: 1) Using the Roman cavalry vs Numidian light horse example, I think it is entirely reasonable and desirable for the Roman Cavalry to be able to attack the closest element even if does not begin in its TZ. 2) Why create an exception, whereby some TZs stop working if the element they should effect happens to have started its turn in another TZ? In terms of phraseology... perhaps: "The area 1 BW deep in front of any edge of a War Wagon or the front edge of any other element, or the area inside 1 BW of any point of a camp, city or garrisoned fort is its Threat Zone (TZ). An element or group: 1) which begins the movement phase at least partially inside a TZ; or 2) whose front edge enters an enemy TZ or touches its far edge during the movement phase; are considered in a TZ and can move only: (a) to line up its front edge with the enemy generating the TZ or (b) to advance into or towards contact with the enemy generating the TZ or (c) if a single element, to move straight back to its own rear for the entire move." In this case, it is the clarity of the rules which is a problem, not the result. There is nothing unreasonable or undesirable about the Roman cavalry attacking the closest light horse.
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Post by stevie on Jan 24, 2017 8:02:43 GMT
Here is stab at it... Threat ZoneElements or Groups respond only to TZs in which they start or to the first they enter. In this case, it is the clarity of the rules which is a problem, not the result. There is nothing unreasonable or undesirable about the Roman cavalry attacking the closest light horse. Yes, there is nothing unreasonable or undesirable about the Roman cavalry wanting to attack the closest light horse. But are we not forgetting what a ‘threat zone’ actually is? Almost all table-top wargames use the turn based system, where one army moves while the other army is stationary. Now some wargames, such as ‘Impetus’, allows the stationary army to react or counter charge during the moving army’s turn. This is to simulate the fact that in reality troops would be moving simultaneously, and would not just sit there passively as an enemy manoeuvred about in front of them. DBA likes to keep things simple and does not have a ‘counter charge’ mechanism, but uses ‘threat zones’ to get roughly the same effect. They represent the region just in front of an element that is facing a potential threat, a danger, one that can’t be ignored. So three points:- 1) Should the Roman cavalry (in this particular situation) be allowed to suddenly ‘forget’ about that potential threat from enemy element LH Z, the very threat that was limiting the Roman cavalry’s options before they started moving and entered the threat zone of LH Y? 2) Would the Numidian LH Z element just sit there and do nothing as the Romans freely manoeuvred about in front of them, exposing their vulnerable flank to attack? (The Romans know this is a danger, otherwise element LH Z’s ‘threat zone’ wouldn’t have been much of a threat in the first place). 3) Could the Roman cavalry commander, having committed his men to charge enemy LH Z, the one that has them pinned in a threat zone, be able to suddenly countermand that order and swing the entire body in a different direction at a moments notice without becoming hopelessly disordered when they enter the new threat zone generated by enemy element LH Y? Personally, I think the answer to all three of these questions in NO. So having elements or groups only responding to TZs in which they start or to the first they enter gives ‘threat zones’ their proper function on our wargames table.
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Post by Dangun on Jan 24, 2017 9:39:36 GMT
So three points:- 1) Should the Roman cavalry (in this particular situation) be allowed to suddenly ‘forget’ about that potential threat from enemy element LH Z, the very threat that was limiting the Roman cavalry’s options before they started moving and entered the threat zone of LH Y? 2) Would the Numidian LH Z element just sit there and do nothing as the Romans freely manoeuvred about in front of them, exposing their vulnerable flank to attack? (The Romans know this is a danger, otherwise element LH Z’s ‘threat zone’ wouldn’t have been much of a threat in the first place). 3) Could the Roman cavalry commander, having committed his men to charge enemy LH Z, the one that has them pinned in a threat zone, be able to suddenly countermand that order and swing the entire body in a different direction at a moments notice without becoming hopelessly disordered when they enter the new threat zone generated by enemy element LH Y? Personally, I think the answer to all three of these questions in NO. So having elements or groups only responding to TZs in which they start or to the first they enter gives ‘threat zones’ their proper function on our wargames table. Not convincing at all. 1) Yes, because the LH that retreated is not the closest enemy. 2) Not relevant, or equally as ridiculous. Would the Roman Cavalry "expose their vulnerable flank to attack" by walking past the closest enemy - the LH in front of them?? 3) Overactive imagination. "Committed to charge" What does this even mean?? You are clearly new here. An ambiguity in the rules has been identified. As with every other new iteration of DBA, it is very difficult to infer the author's intention. You have demonstrated that we cannot logically deduce the answer from other rules because you have resorted to un-sourced "should-based" imagination arguments. Bob and I have suggested variants of concision-based arguments. Joe apparently prefers an argument that doesn't conflict with one of the diagrams. The best we can hope for is just a ruling.
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Post by martin on Jan 24, 2017 14:05:29 GMT
So three points:- 1) Should the Roman cavalry (in this particular situation) be allowed to suddenly ‘forget’ about that potential threat from enemy element LH Z, the very threat that was limiting the Roman cavalry’s options before they started moving and entered the threat zone of LH Y? 2) Would the Numidian LH Z element just sit there and do nothing as the Romans freely manoeuvred about in front of them, exposing their vulnerable flank to attack? (The Romans know this is a danger, otherwise element LH Z’s ‘threat zone’ wouldn’t have been much of a threat in the first place). 3) Could the Roman cavalry commander, having committed his men to charge enemy LH Z, the one that has them pinned in a threat zone, be able to suddenly countermand that order and swing the entire body in a different direction at a moments notice without becoming hopelessly disordered when they enter the new threat zone generated by enemy element LH Y? Personally, I think the answer to all three of these questions in NO. So having elements or groups only responding to TZs in which they start or to the first they enter gives ‘threat zones’ their proper function on our wargames table. > > You are clearly new here. > > I'd be wary of making such an assumption. Stevie is an astute guy, who has been playing DBA for a very long time. Martin
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Post by stevie on Jan 24, 2017 19:24:33 GMT
3) Overactive imagination. "Committed to charge" What does this even mean?? You are clearly new here. ...you have resorted to un-sourced "should-based" imagination arguments. I’ll ignore the mild attempts at personal insults and just stick to the issue thank you. You accuse me of “resorting to un-sourced ‘should-based’ imagination arguments”. Very well, here is a sourced based argument:- At the Battle of Waterloo, once the British cavalry had been ordered to attack, trying to get these troops who were committed to the charge (you know, told to get in close combat and excitedly galloping forward waving their swords in the air) to even halt proved to be well-nigh impossible...let alone getting them to suddenly turn and face a new threat, in this case the French Lancers on their left flank, as an organized body. Would ancient troops do any better? Believe it or not, I’m not against the suggestion that charging the closest enemy threat would be a better solution. But Joe said that he proposed that and it was rejected. Plus it could cause problems with measurement (is this element closer than that element? What about facing...is an enemy that is aligned but slightly further away a greater or lesser threat than a closer enemy that is not quite facing in the right direction?). Nonetheless, I’ll fully support whatever the FAQ Team decides should be the best resolution. By the way, you gave your side of the argument and opinions... ...will you not allow me the courtesy of doing the same?
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Post by Dangun on Jan 26, 2017 8:41:42 GMT
3) Overactive imagination. "Committed to charge" What does this even mean?? You are clearly new here. ...you have resorted to un-sourced "should-based" imagination arguments. You accuse me of “resorting to un-sourced ‘should-based’ imagination arguments”. Very well, here is a sourced based argument:- At the Battle of Waterloo, once the British cavalry had been ordered to attack, trying to get these troops who were committed to the charge (you know, told to get in close combat and excitedly galloping forward waving their swords in the air) to even halt proved to be well-nigh impossible...let alone getting them to suddenly turn and face a new threat, in this case the French Lancers on their left flank, as an organized body. Would ancient troops do any better? Believe it or not, I’m not against the suggestion that charging the closest enemy threat would be a better solution. But Joe said that he proposed that and it was rejected. Plus it could cause problems with measurement (is this element closer than that element? What about facing...is an enemy that is aligned but slightly further away a greater or lesser threat than a closer enemy that is not quite facing in the right direction?). Remind me, what year was Waterloo? Unless you are averse to sarcasm, I don't think I was making a personal insult, I am trying to: 1) point out the weakness of the argument by offering an alternative; and 2) criticize the relevance of your method - should/imagination. Sans-sarcasm... The point is that "should" has nothing to do with it, nor does your imagination in regards to how history might have been. These are published rules - rules that are especially good for clubs and tournaments where a common understanding of the rules has high utility. As demonstrated by the 2.0, 2.2, etc. transitions, when confronted with an ambiguity, sometimes we can infer the authors intention, sometimes we can deduce from the other rules. But, if that doesn't work, we need a ruling. That might come from the author, but a unique problem with DBA is that the author has often chosen not to engage with/understand the question. So players have resorted to official channels like the 3.0 FAQ, or the unofficial like the WADBAG 2.2 guide. Our imaginations are neither compelling or relevant. (I'm not against a well sourced argument form history. I love that stuff. It would be a useful input into a discussion about the realism of the rules, but its off topic. For Roman and Numidian cavalry interactions I suggest Sallust's Jurgurthine War, but I've never seen a Latin rendering of "threat zone" so I doubt we'll find much.)
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Post by bob on Jan 27, 2017 5:20:37 GMT
Whatever considerations are made, do not include the concept of moving toward an enemy that is the shortest distances away. This is clearly stated in HO TT and when it was brought up in the DBA three discussions, Phil rejected it. He wanted an elements to respond to any enemy whose threat zone it was in.
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Post by BrianNZ on Feb 5, 2017 7:56:17 GMT
Cv A fights LH Z. LH Y is not an overlap as it is not in front corner to corner contact. However, if LH Z wins by any score, Cv A is destroyed as it has enemy in front contact with it flank. Do I have this correct? This question has yet to be answered. I think that the Cav is destroyed myself.
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Fab
Munifex
Posts: 12
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Post by Fab on Feb 6, 2017 6:57:08 GMT
FWIW I answered the question at post #3, first page : no overlap, Cv destroyed if LH Z wins by any score.
Cheers Fab
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Post by medievalthomas on Feb 7, 2017 17:03:57 GMT
I too think that Cav A is destroyed due to an enemy in front edge contact with its flank.
Re the knottier question of responding to multiple TZ's:
The DBA 3.0 project strove to create rules that modeled rear world realities but in a playable manner. These considerations sometime worked together but in many cases needed to be balanced to produce a workable game.
As to real world considerations, I think on balance they favor the single response model. The difficulties of a commander having already ordered troops to respond to a near by threat then recognizing a new threat, deciding which presents the greater threat, forming a new plan of action and then relaying this new plan of action to the troops in time for them to stop doing what they were doing and start doing something else seem overwhelming. Its the old saw: order, counter-order: disorder. Examples of "voice command" period troops including those at Waterloo are germaine to the discussion about the abilities of troops to alter course while in close proximty to enemies.
The practical considerasions also favor the one response model. Its already difficult to define "responding" to a TZ and even more difficult when an element can begin responding to one TZ then enter a second and alter course to "respond" to that TZ. Its a lot of potential zig zagging.
Overall I'm still leaning toward the one response model.
Thomas J Thomas
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Post by BrianNZ on Feb 7, 2017 18:27:09 GMT
FWIW I answered the question at post #3, first page : no overlap, Cv destroyed if LH Z wins by any score. Cheers Fab Missed that Fab, thanks.
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Post by bob on Feb 7, 2017 19:16:35 GMT
Cv A fights LH Z. LH Y is not an overlap as it is not in front corner to corner contact. However, if LH Z wins by any score, Cv A is destroyed as it has enemy in front contact with it flank. Do I have this correct? This question has yet to be answered. I think that the Cav is destroyed myself. This question is actually answered in the rules: " An element that has an enemy front edge in contact with its side or rear edge is destroyed by recoiling, being pushed back, fleeing or being in a column whose front element is destroyed. " Notice that the wording does not say in flank contact, rather in contact with its side edge.
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