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Post by stevie on Feb 12, 2018 15:38:45 GMT
Weren't they basically like regular hoplites? So 4Sp? Well Antigonos (love the name by the way…see fanaticus.boards.net/thread/689/why-antigonos-on-foot ), all I can do is repeat what I have said before:- The Companions pursue because they are knights.
The Phalangites pursue because they are pikes.
And the Hypaspists, the link between these two arms………?
“Troops are defined by battlefield behaviour instead of the usual formation, armour, weapons and moral classes.”
Do auxiliaries and spears really reflect the battlefield behaviour of Hypaspists?
DBA goes to great pains to make each troop type fight as their historical real-life counterpart, what with 3Kn acting like knights (lots of quick-kills, but likes to pursue), 4Pk acting like pikes (powerful, but weak if disordered by terrain), Ps acting like skirmishers (not very powerful, but hard to kill as they run away from most foot), and so on. I’m sure that people would complain if elephants and scythed chariots fought exactly the same as cavalry! So why are elite Hypaspists treated as if they are no more than lowly auxiliaries or ordinary spearmen? If Spanish Celtiberians can be 3Bd instead of 3/4Ax because they fought better than other Iberians, why can't Hypaspists do the same? I like my elite troops to fight as elite troops, and be better than normal soldiers. As DBA has no rules for troop experience (but see fanaticus.boards.net/thread/8/stand-experience ), the next best thing is to use an alternative element type to simulate their performance on our wargames table. And if the phrase “Blades” carries too much mental baggage with it, then don’t call them that. Call them this instead:- New Element Type: Elite Foot. These, no matter how they are armed, have a combat factor of 5 against foot, 3 against mounted, 4 if shot at, -2 in close combat in bad going, can kill Kn if they score equal, will pursue enemy foot other than Ps, and all enemy elements treat them as Bd.
(just as CP, CWg and Lit all have elite guards and they too are also treated as Bd, except that these don't pursue or move into contact the enemy).I often use “Elite Foot” (i.e. Bd) to represent Hannibal’s veterans at Cannae and Zama…not because they abandoned their spears, nor because they used captured Roman equipment, but because they were veterans, and veterans fight better than ordinary spearmen. Indeed, a case could be made to deploy full Spartan Hoplites as Bd instead of Sp, because they too were Elite and fought better than ordinary Greek Hoplites. (Having only a combat factor of 3 against mounted instead of 4 like Sp could explain why at the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC the Spartans moved to their left flank to avoid the Persian horsemen, but when the Persian horse also moved to face them they moved back to their original position on the right. The Persian commander Mardonius even gave a speech berating the Spartans for their cowardice to face his Persian horsemen…
…see Herodotus, sections [9.46] to [9.48]: mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/Herodotus/Herodotus9.html ) Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by jim1973 on Feb 17, 2018 2:01:24 GMT
If a Viking shieldwall can be classed as blades then Hypaspists can be classed as blades.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by Simon on Feb 17, 2018 8:17:14 GMT
Tom's A Game of Knights and Knaves rules have the concept of character stands (foot or mounted). These are always fast and have a basic combat score of +5 and cost 5 pts. Similar to Stevie's idea of elite units. There are limits to what you can buy - ie no more than 1/2 points value can be characters.
Simon
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Post by paddy649 on Feb 17, 2018 20:35:47 GMT
Given all the discussion above is the correct classification for Hypaspists 4Bd//4Sp//4Ax?.......and I do mean that they should be given such enormous flexibility in battle. They were after all Alexander's elite troops.
......or alternatively we introduce a new troop category of fast Sp for the Hypaspists.
Either way 4Ax just seems wrong for these troops. |
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Post by stevie on Feb 18, 2018 8:59:00 GMT
Well Paddy649, I’d leave it up to the player to decide. However, perhaps the following chart will help people to make a choice:- Combat Combat Movement Combat in Against Against Against
vs foot vs mounted If shot at in bad/rough bad going Pursuit Wb/SCh Kn El
3Bd 5 3 4 3 BW -2 yes bad good* bad (6 'blues')
4Bd 5 3 4 1 BW -2 yes bad good* bad (5 'blues')
4Sp 4+1 4 4 1 BW -2 no bad bad?* good? (3 'blues')
4Ax 3 3 3 3 BW no effect no good bad good (4 'blues')
*Notes: Bd have 8 chances out of 36 of destroying Kn (11 chances with an overlap), and 13 chances of being destroyed themselves.
Sp have 4 chances out of 36 of destroying Kn (9 chances with an overlap), and 10 chances of being destroyed themselves.
Doubled Cv merely flee from Sp...but they are destroyed if doubled by 3/4Bd.
Personally, I prefer them to be 3Bd. They are more powerful, they move faster, they can pursue, in bad going as good as Ax, and they are a threat to Kn. If 3Bd pursue foot and get themselves overlapped on both flanks, they have a CF of 3, the same as non-pursuing Ax. They are not as good against Wb, El, or SCh, but Hypaspists never faced Wb or El, and SCh were elsewhere in battle. (By the time of the Indian campaign, the Hypaspists have been upgraded into pikemen in army II/15)Having Hypaspists as 4Bd or Sp would encourage players to deploy their Greek Hoplites next to them in order to claim side-support, which is unhistorical (the Hoplites were reluctant troops, distrusted and usually kept either in reserve or on the ‘holding flank’. The Greeks even rebelled against Macedonian rule in 331 and 323 BC). (It might seem odd to have 4 figure Hypaspists fighting as a 3 figure 3Bd element, but medieval knights can deploy as 3Bd yet still act as 4Bd, so I see no problem with 4 figure Hypaspists doing the reverse)Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by primuspilus on Feb 18, 2018 14:55:55 GMT
Sounds intriguing. I like the idea of elements being able to "dismount" before deployment as another element type. Alexander's Pk should be able to dismount as 4Ax, to properly reflect his mountain campaigns in Thrace and Illyria. I am thinking of this for campaign gaming.
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Post by jim1973 on Feb 18, 2018 23:20:43 GMT
Phil's HFG rules (Horse, Foot, Guns) were planned to have period specific supplements to add detail. Though they haven't materialised, I liked the concept. DBA could use unofficial period supplements to add in details like Spartans, Hypaspists, Caesar's 1st Cohort, the Maccabees, etc.
Cheers
Jim
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Post by stevie on Feb 19, 2018 0:38:43 GMT
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Post by medievalthomas on Feb 19, 2018 15:49:05 GMT
Good example of terminology confusion between Bob and Stevie.
"Quick Kill" is not defined by the rules and is just a made up term so could mean many things to many people (and nothing at all to newbies). (I'm often blamed for it since I used it in an early review of DBX for Spearpoint - I think- it was based on a John Hill concept in one of his games). It makes no sense as Destroyed by Doubling is just as Quick.
"Cry Havoc" is good for Destroyed on Equals (and fun to shout out when it happens).
"Shock" is good for Destroyed on More.
You need to determine troop type by armor (heavy medium/??), order (loose or formed), weapon (and usage) and any exceptional trait (morale, skill, disciple or lack of) but be aware final category needs to be truly exceptional as all armies (think) they have elite troops etc.
TomT
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Post by paddy649 on Feb 19, 2018 19:51:08 GMT
Stevie,
You make some excellent points.
Having Hypaspists as 4Bd or Sp would indeed encourage players to deploy their Greek Hoplites next to them, which is unhistorical. Hence, however odd it may seem perhaps 3Bd is the correct classification for Hypaspists.
P.S. I also agree with primuspilus that Alexander's phalangites should be Pk/4Ax.
Paddy
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Post by strelnikov on Feb 20, 2018 14:07:09 GMT
P.S. I also agree with primuspilus that Alexander's phalangites should be Pk/4Ax. Paddy DBM allowed Alexander's phalangites to be Pk/4Ax. |
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Post by stevie on Feb 20, 2018 15:47:21 GMT
That’s interesting Strelnikov. The DBMM Army List for the II/12 Macedonians 359-319 BC says:- Only if Philip II before 357 BC:Downgrade phalangites to troops not yet retrained as pikemen - Irr Ax (O) @ 3AP, ¼ to ½. But what Primuspilus and Paddy649 are talking about is 4Pk ‘dismounting’ (i.e. rearming) as 4Ax when already deployed. After all, one assumes that Alex or his dad would rearm their phalangites after they had looked at the battlefield. So how about having them free to deploy at least some of their 4Pk as 4Ax if they want to, after terrain placement. (Having them tramp around carrying both pikes and javelins so they can rearm at a moments notice is asking too much.
Rearming them when they deploy seems reasonable...they are given javelins and leave their pikes in the camp)Perhaps army II/12 (but not other Macedonian armies) should read as follows: 1 x General and Companions (3Kn), 1 x Thessalians (Cv), 1 x light horse (LH), 1 x hypaspists ( 3Bd) or local peltasts (4Ax), 6 x phalangites (all 4Pk or up to ½ may deploy as 4Ax), 1 x psiloi (Ps), 1 x Greek hoplites (Sp) or Thracians (3/4Ax) or bolt-shooters (Art). Alexander almost certainly rearmed his phalangites to fight in difficult hills when he finally broke through the Persian Gate in 330 BC. (See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Persian_Gate ) QuestionWhat about other 3Pk armies, especially the II/68 Picts and the III/19c Welsh? I’ve always thought it odd that these two have Hilly as their home region, with lots of difficult hills and woods, which they can’t fight in. Perhaps they too should be allowed to decide whether to deploy as 3Pk or 3Ax, once the terrain has been placed… Just a thought. Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by strelnikov on Feb 20, 2018 17:08:05 GMT
The DBM Army List Book II dated November 1998 states under the Alexandrian Macedonian, List 12:
"Replace pezetairoi's pikes with javelins - Reg Ax(O).....0-12" PB allowed 12 out of a possible maximum of 48 to be so armed back then. PB mentions this happened at Halikarnassos in the text for the list.
For the Hypaspists it states: "all Reg Sp (S)...Reg Ax(S)...or all Reg Pk (S)." PB also allowed the CinC to be regraded as a Hypaspist element only before 334BC.
JFC Fuller mentions the re-arming of the pezetairoi in his book: The Generalship of Alexander the Great.
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Post by stevie on Feb 20, 2018 17:38:40 GMT
Oops…quite right strelnikov.  The November 2008 DBMM Book II Army List for II/12 Alexandrian Macedonians 359-319 BC says:- Only if C-in-C is Alexander from 338 to 329 BC:Replace phalangites’ pikes with javelins - Reg Ax (O) @ 4 AP, 0-16 (which is about a third of the maximum allowed).It also says that Philip in 338 BC can command the hypaspists or be a pike general. (I still think it would be better if Phil or his lad Alex decided what the pikes will be on deployment, after terrain placement.
Otherwise they'll have to decide before they've even seen the terrain that they will be fighting over.)Some potentially useful player aids can be found here, such as the “Quick Reference Sheets” from the Society of Ancients,
and the new “Army List Corrections” file: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Reference_sheets_and_epitomes
And this is the latest January 2018 FAQ: fanaticus-dba.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ_2018
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Post by strelnikov on Feb 20, 2018 19:07:36 GMT
Stevie, it seems the DBMM army list is in agreement with the older DBM one regarding the pezetairoi.
I am also warming to the idea of the Hypaspists being given the option of 3Bd. At Gaugamela, the Hypaspists (along with the Agrianians) seem to have been a faster moving link between the Companions & the Phalanx on the Macedonian right. It also seems that the Hypaspists contacted the main Persian battle line before the Phalanx did. 3Bd may represent this the best.
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