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Post by phippsy on Nov 26, 2016 21:31:44 GMT
Interesting indeed - I suppose all these subtleties and nuances, with LH makes it a real and interesting challenge, rather than more obvious and straight up tactics with knight, blade, spear and Warband dominant armies...thanks Hadraada. It looked like that from the rules when it said on P12 3rd par under 'fleeing' 'it is destroyed.....,or if after turning it cannot move at all,'...but was not sure if something was hidden away.....so you are advising that do not rear support up v heavy foot where a doubled would lead to an element being destroyed, rather than fighting in a single line - where a flee would happen normally ie cannot be killed....but ok to double up via mounted / Bows / Ps as destroyed anyway if doubled and therefore only lose the front element if with rear support.
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Post by Haardrada on Nov 26, 2016 21:49:06 GMT
Lh are real challenge to use and take a while to get used to.Their really weedy in combat unless you can arrange an advantagious combat on your terms.If you dance about too much you'll eventually get closed down or if you try to flank too soon you'll give your plan away.If you check out some Mongol battles they used distraction and manouver to achieve victory rather than a direct approach,then vanished if they met major opposition only to turn up in force elsewhere.
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Post by timurilank on Nov 26, 2016 22:49:55 GMT
Evolving this topic - if you are in a supported combat as LH ie increasing your combat factor from 2 to 3, and a combat goes against you with a flee outcome, does this mean that the element in combat is destroyed, or does it flee through the supporting element or do both elements flee? Thanks Peter Destroyed, so choose carfully what you match your double elements against.There was a thread on this on the old fanaticus and the conclusion reached there was to use doubled up Lh elements against elements that can double a single Lh element otherwise it was too risky. Note an overlap giving a -1 to the enemy element your facing does in a way count the same as doubling up and does not risk loosing the front Lh element to a flee result. Using the double Lh element plus an overlapping element can make a serious difference if timed correctly against the right enemy element. I agree with Haardrada, choose wisely which elements are to be attacked by a column of two elements. Two LH in column has an added disadvantage of the support element is in the opponent’s TZ. |
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Post by Haardrada on Nov 27, 2016 8:38:02 GMT
I would also add that if you choose terrain be careful not to place too much as you do not want to crowd the table and hinder your movement, but the use of smaller terrain pieces can channel enemy into "killing zones" or break up their battle line so that you can defeat it in detail.
Woods and hills particular are helpful in a way as you can hinder enemy command and control distances but be careful your not gifting your opponents bad going troops oppertunities to attack from relative safety,especially if you do not have any yourself to counter them.
Roads are great for free movement before you use pips but are also useful to your opponent too, so place them carefully or not at all as your Lh can move a possible 12 Base widths in a single bound and remain in Command distance.
Whilst still on terrain and you don't deploy, be wary of Littorial landing placing troops on your flanks or rear.But also expliot any gain from up to 3 enemy units that are possibly already is isolated from your opponents line.
Lastly, check out the rules on TZs as mentioned by Timurilank,you can use TZs to restrict enemy movement options without contacting elements or making them spend pips to deal with the threat.Which can annoy Heavy foot lines that don't want to break formation.😉
There are several things to consider when using Lh armies and what you learn does not always work.
Be decisive, but not too rash nor cautious but most of all have fun.
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Post by zoebrain on Nov 27, 2016 11:01:47 GMT
Another target for rear support - enemy generals and the troops next to them. Especially if they're Knights. Even if you recoil against them, this can suck them in to be killed next bound. In Landwaister, I did in 4 enemy generals in 6 games. 2 Kn4, 1 Cv, 1 HCh. Still lost one of those, 5 1s in a row for pips and combat when I was up factors and shut the gate on him left me too scattered, from 3/0 losses to 3/4. It happens.
Two ways a loss is close to guaranteed though. Low pip dice - a 1 on the first turn is difficult to recover from. And 3 lots of maximum sized bad going in 3 different quarters. If you get both together, it gets ugly. You are forced to deploy in 3 deep columns, or in bad terrain, where an enemy psiloi can hit you with a +2/0 on the second bound, before you can move. 2 psiloi just shut the gate and leave you -1/2.
A 10 LC army with 2 Ps is far more effective than 12 LC. But consecutive 1s for pips is far worse for any LC army than one that advances in a line.
Beware that if you are caught in one quarter, move up enough so you don't flee off the board. On a 60 cm board, you have to deploy in the rear 18cm, base depth is 3cm, so the first flee of 16cm takes you off. If you only have 1 pip on turn 1, use it to go just over 1 bw forward. This gives you space for one recoil and one flee.
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Post by Haardrada on Nov 27, 2016 11:21:41 GMT
Another target for rear support - enemy generals and the troops next to them. Especially if they're Knights. Even if you recoil against them, this can suck them in to be killed next bound. In Landwaister, I did in 4 enemy generals in 6 games. 2 Kn4, 1 Cv, 1 HCh. Still lost one of those, 5 1s in a row for pips and combat when I was up factors and shut the gate on him left me too scattered, from 3/0 losses to 3/4. It happens. Two ways a loss is close to guaranteed though. Low pip dice - a 1 on the first turn is difficult to recover from. And 3 lots of maximum sized bad going in 3 different quarters. If you get both together, it gets ugly. You are forced to deploy in 3 deep columns, or in bad terrain, where an enemy psiloi can hit you with a +2/0 on the second bound, before you can move. 2 psiloi just shut the gate and leave you -1/2. A 10 LC army with 2 Ps is far more effective than 12 LC. But consecutive 1s for pips is far worse for any LC army than one that advances in a line. Beware that if you are caught in one quarter, move up enough so you don't flee off the board. On a 60 cm board, you have to deploy in the rear 18cm, base depth is 3cm, so the first flee of 16cm takes you off. If you only have 1 pip on turn 1, use it to go just over 1 bw forward. This gives you space for one recoil and one flee. Killing 4 Genrals in 6 games is pretty good going Zoe, well done.Have you ever considered using the Aux rather than the Ps or do you like their speed? I run the I/43b Early Hu list with the 8Lh and the Aux and it does ok,but is still too light.I find using more than 6Lh and/or the Hd too much of a pip drain but with the armies high aggression you usually see how your opponnent deploys first. I much prefer the II/38b Southern Hsuing nu list as the Knights give it a little teeth and the Aux cover your bad going and a bw element to support either,plus the allies can add a little difference.😊 |
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Post by zoebrain on Nov 28, 2016 3:22:23 GMT
I was using Mythological Scythians - Centaurs. So having infantry of any form would not have been aesthetically pleasing.
One game was a disaster. Up against an opponent from hilly, he placed 2 6bw x 3bw steep hills, and 2 6bw x 3bw woods, got lucky with placement, so all 4 corners had them in the deployment area. On a 60cm table, a 24x12cm patch of bad going can cover all of 1 quarter deployment area (from 6cm from left, 12cm from rear, horizontally), then dividing the other quarter, 6cm from rear, 12cm from right. No matter which side was chosen for entry.
Leaving 1 Bw on the right, up to 3 after 2 pips move, and 1.5Bw in the middle of good going to deploy in.
Due to having to move in columns initially, he had some difficulty even with his fast foot Ax moving into pinning distance, even rolling 4 and 5 for pips. But his Ps, starting in good going and ending in bad going, moved 2 moves, just outside of pinning distance before I could even roll for pips. I rolled two consecutive 1s for pips, and then it got ugly, losing both my general and camp.
Part of the game is creating opportunities for opponents' bad luck to be disastrous for them, another is to create situations where even mild good luck on your part can give disproportionate benefits. Do those two often enough, and you'll win most of your battles. My opponent in that game did both.
Sometimes you are forced to take risks, and just hope for a die roll better than 2, even if the consequences of rolling lower would be catastrophic. A good opponent will create many such situations for you to be in. The trouble is, the alternatives are worse. If you roll high, you get out of it - this time. And try not to get into that situation again. If you roll low, congratulate a skillful opponent on his good play putting you in that situation.
It works best if you can do this to an opponent several times in a row, without him being able to get out of it. It might take 3 or 4 times, but you get there in the end. If you're lucky, the first one succeeds.
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gus
Munifex
Posts: 22 
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Post by gus on Nov 29, 2016 9:27:10 GMT
Not that my track record with my Mongols is anything to brag about, but I like to try to draw out my opponents bows, then attack with support for the quick kill.
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gus
Munifex
Posts: 22
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Post by gus on Dec 16, 2016 5:45:32 GMT
I've cracked it!
After my most recent tournament effort with my IV/35 Mongols, I've final figured out how to maximise my army's efficiency...?
Take the minimum amount of Lh possible, which is 5 for he Mongols (ably supported by a Art and 6x Cv).
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Post by timurilank on Dec 16, 2016 7:25:15 GMT
I've cracked it! After my most recent tournament effort with my IV/35 Mongols, I've final figured out how to maximise my army's efficiency...? Take the minimum amount of Lh possible, which is 5 for he Mongols (ably supported by a Art and 6x Cv). Well done. I suppose "I've cracked it" is the modern day equivalent of "Eureka" (εὕρηκα). 
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Post by Haardrada on Dec 17, 2016 18:53:35 GMT
I've cracked it! After my most recent tournament effort with my IV/35 Mongols, I've final figured out how to maximise my army's efficiency...? Take the minimum amount of Lh possible, which is 5 for he Mongols (ably supported by a Art and 6x Cv). Does that mean using less Lh and more Cav suits you better or that using less Lh is less of a pip drain? Or is the new army line-up better suited against the armies you opposing? |
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Post by phippsy on Jan 4, 2017 9:28:25 GMT
Been exploring this further over Christmas. If I have say a mixed battle line, closing in on an opponents line, and I have in that line somewhere a 2 element column of LH, and I want to disappear off to a flank and get behind oppo line, but cannot do so between the lines, as I will start to be interfered by enemy TZ, how does the PIP spend work to send the column off behind my line to the flank? I assume that I spin both elements of the LH column around 180 degrees, using up some of the 4 BW move distance and then move them as seperate elements for the rest of the move = 2 PIPs. The two elements are now in column running behind my line to a flank. Can I then make a subsequent move or two moves as LH but as a group for each move, expending 1 PIP each group move, or 2 PIP each move as was moved as elements in the first move?
Thanks Phippsy.
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Post by martin on Jan 4, 2017 14:45:29 GMT
> > Can I then make a subsequent move or two moves as LH but as a group for each move, expending 1 PIP each group move, or 2 PIP each move as was moved as elements in the first move? Thanks Phippsy. 1 PIP per subsequent LH move, assuming they remain as a legal group throughout those subsequent moves. M |
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Post by wjhupp on Jan 28, 2017 19:37:26 GMT
Thanks for this discussion. I had almost given up on trying to use a Mongol army outside of historical opponents in DBA.
Bill
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Post by Haardrada on Jan 28, 2017 20:34:11 GMT
Thanks for this discussion. I had almost given up on trying to use a Mongol army outside of historical opponents in DBA. Bill I run an Early Hsuing nu army that is very simular (less the artillery) to the Mongol Conquest army prior to Dba 3.0 and have several victories against none-historical armies.You could consider using allies to add some diversity to the army.😊 |
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