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Post by snowcat on May 24, 2024 1:35:36 GMT
Here's one of the sections on 'Light Infantry' from 'Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars':
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Post by snowcat on May 25, 2024 1:17:08 GMT
Reading the above excerpt, you can make a case for Ps being used as skirmishers in front of the main battle line, *AND* in a variety of other locations and purposes.
Cheers
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Post by Brian Ború on May 25, 2024 19:02:19 GMT
Screening dancers – Ps in front of your Phalanx
What I like best at DBA: it is a relational game. Many conditions may come together and create a unique situation. So when thinking about Ps in DBA and their examples in history, we should not focus on the Ps alone, but always keep in mind that they perform a certain rôle on the battlefield, always in cooperation with their friends.
Let's think about the line of Ps in front of an enemy Phalanx as described by ancient authors and let's see how it may be performed in DBA.
1. A Ps is not one, but three
As Ps cannot be overlapped, we may imagine that each unit of them out in front reaches farther to its left and right than we see, as a kind of thin and flexible line. In this way 2 Ps may "screen" 6 units–half of an army! Or 3 Ps may confront ¾ of it! Certainly, to prevent our Ps from being flanked, we must establish a second or main line further back, so that enemy units can't easily break through and close the door on our peltastes. How we form this second line depends on our tactics, but its front must always be less than 1 BW away from the front edge of our Ps.
2. Softening and opening the enemy line
Clearly Ps can't achieve this by fighting and recoiling or being pursued by enemy units. They are too weak, and especially heavy foot won't even follow up, so that they may still maintain their Phalanx or Shield wall. But on a minor scale this effect may be found in the fact, that the enemy needs time to close in on the Ps. That's the point. The Ps delay the advance, thus simulating that the enemy line has to keep discipline.
Now imagine the Ps in a slightly oblique line or not in line at all. Either the enemy maintains his line and must perform a slight turn, so that his line touches all or most of the Ps, or he keeps direction and closes first on the one Ps and later on the other. This slows the enemy movement either remarkably down, or he has to turn in a direction I urged on him, or even to split his line in two or more groups (leading to further PIP drain).
3. Time for change
So some Ps may buy precious time, and you may use this time for special actions:
• regroup your main battle line for maximum impact
• attack with Art, Bw, El, SCh etc. through the gaps • make a flanking movement with LH or Cv • etc.
4. Evaporating and luring the enemy in
Yep, it really works. Once you've seen your enemy's disposition you may use Ps to spot and zoc your targets, like El, Hd, SCh etc. Then you put behind them corresponding killers like Ax, Kn or El, and some other of your units to achieve overlaps on these.
Once your enemy took the bait he remains zocked, then moves up and has to fight it out, while the Ps regroups behind.
So, all in all nearly every of ancient tactics are there, but to perform it, you have to use your Ps cleverly – like all your troops.
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Post by snowcat on May 26, 2024 2:02:57 GMT
Brian, the above is very good. Only thing I was left thinking was: should Ps still be worth 1 VP per element lost? Some people play that the first Ps lost doesn't count towards victory conditions.
Cheers
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Post by Brian Ború on May 26, 2024 9:18:04 GMT
Brian, ... : should Ps still be worth 1 VP per element lost? ... Cheers Certainly. One of our best expert units.
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Post by skb777 on May 26, 2024 9:26:06 GMT
As Brian has mentioned above, one of my favourite tactics is to us Ps to slow down HI whilst you win elsewhere as they can't kill them. One of the worst is to use them against other Ps as you are in the lap of the dice God's and it's a lottery.
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Post by snowcat on May 26, 2024 12:03:42 GMT
Brian, ... : should Ps still be worth 1 VP per element lost? ... Cheers Certainly. One of our best expert units. Ha! I'll stick with the heavy cavalry, thanks.
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Post by Brian Ború on May 26, 2024 12:38:42 GMT
Certainly. One of our best expert units. Ha! I'll stick with the heavy cavalry, thanks. Ha! Then come on with your heavy cavalry and hunt my Ps in the woods.
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Post by snowcat on May 26, 2024 12:48:57 GMT
Ha! I'll stick with the heavy cavalry, thanks. Ha! Then come on with your heavy cavalry and hunt my Ps in the woods. Ha! I'm descended on my Mother's side from a Norman knight rewarded for his deeds at Hastings, so I probably would chase you into the woods!
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Post by Brian Ború on May 26, 2024 14:30:26 GMT
Ha! Then come on with your heavy cavalry and hunt my Ps in the woods. Ha! I'm descended on my Mother's side from a Norman knight rewarded for his deeds at Hastings, so I probably would chase you into the woods! Ha! I'm descended in direct line from thuringian nobles and ... I think we digress, don't we?
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Post by snowcat on May 27, 2024 0:41:11 GMT
Ha! I'm descended on my Mother's side from a Norman knight rewarded for his deeds at Hastings, so I probably would chase you into the woods! Ha! I'm descended in direct line from thuringian nobles and ... I think we digress, don't we? Ah the Thuringians, they used to like hanging out in the woods. I see some things haven't changed. Old habits and all that...!
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Post by Baldie on May 27, 2024 16:23:09 GMT
Ha! I'm descended on my Mother's side from a Norman knight rewarded for his deeds at Hastings, so I probably would chase you into the woods! Ha! I'm descended in direct line from thuringian nobles and ... I think we digress, don't we? I come from a long line of sh#t shovellers
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Post by felixs on May 27, 2024 18:34:13 GMT
Thank you all, very interesting! Reading the above excerpt, you can make a case for Ps being used as skirmishers in front of the main battle line, *AND* in a variety of other locations and purposes. Cheers Quite so.
But even that text agrees that the usual role of Psiloi would have been that of skirmishing in front of the main battle line. Unfortunately, the text does not give a source or an example for the use of skirmishers as bad terrain type (and it even limits this role to shooting from high ground - which does not work very well in DBA and would be better represented by 3Bw).
1. A Ps is not one, but three
As Ps cannot be overlapped, we may imagine that each unit of them out in front reaches farther to its left and right than we see, as a kind of thin and flexible line. In this way 2 Ps may "screen" 6 units–half of an army! Or 3 Ps may confront ¾ of it! Certainly, to prevent our Ps from being flanked, we must establish a second or main line further back, so that enemy units can't easily break through and close the door on our peltastes. How we form this second line depends on our tactics, but its front must always be less than 1 BW away from the front edge of our Ps.
2. Softening and opening the enemy line
Clearly Ps can't achieve this by fighting and recoiling or being pursued by enemy units. They are too weak, and especially heavy foot won't even follow up, so that they may still maintain their Phalanx or Shield wall. But on a minor scale this effect may be found in the fact, that the enemy needs time to close in on the Ps. That's the point. The Ps delay the advance, thus simulating that the enemy line has to keep discipline.
Now imagine the Ps in a slightly oblique line or not in line at all. Either the enemy maintains his line and must perform a slight turn, so that his line touches all or most of the Ps, or he keeps direction and closes first on the one Ps and later on the other. This slows the enemy movement either remarkably down, or he has to turn in a direction I urged on him, or even to split his line in two or more groups (leading to further PIP drain).
3. Time for change
So some Ps may buy precious time, and you may use this time for special actions:
• regroup your main battle line for maximum impact
• attack with Art, Bw, El, SCh etc. through the gaps • make a flanking movement with LH or Cv • etc.
4. Evaporating and luring the enemy in
Yep, it really works. Once you've seen your enemy's disposition you may use Ps to spot and zoc your targets, like El, Hd, SCh etc. Then you put behind them corresponding killers like Ax, Kn or El, and some other of your units to achieve overlaps on these.
Once your enemy took the bait he remains zocked, then moves up and has to fight it out, while the Ps regroups behind.
So, all in all nearly every of ancient tactics are there, but to perform it, you have to use your Ps cleverly – like all your troops. All very nice ideas, but I am not fully convinced. It still seems to me that using Ps as a screen in open terrain is usually a bad idea.
I am not convinced that 1) is very useful, because you will have to spend PIPs on your Ps. And your own line will have to be so close that it hardly matters. Even Solid infantry will be in contact with your main battle line next turn. (As for the exact distance, I believe 1 BW behind a point somewhere along the flank of the Ps is enough, but that is nit-picking).
The example in 2) creates all the old problems of kinked lines. A very unpleasant play with geometrical problems, if played through to its conclusion. But even if that is avoided, you need at least 2 Ps to pull this off, as a single Ps would have to conform to a group contacting it (what exactly that means is - unfortunately - a bit blurry. But it seems clear that the intent of the rules is to discourage exactly that sort of geometrical escapades). Plus, I am not sure whether this tactic would be worth the PIP; would have to do some practical exercises to find that out. Lastly, having your Ps not lined up with your own battleline puts the Ps at a risk of not being able to recoil through friends (which is only allowed if facing the same direction).
While 3) can be true, this can also be done with other elements - it is not specific to Ps. Also, I am not sure about how useful it is in practice, since the enemy would be uncomfortably close while you would re-form or position yourself for the attack. If you use tactics as described in 2), exploiting gaps is likely to be tricky, since you would have to maneuver your own attack around
As for 4), I am not understand whether I understand the idea. If the enemy feels safe to attack the Ps with those deadly other units nearby, that would most likely be due to a lack of knowledge of the combat outcome table. I do not see what role the Ps play and how that relates to historical tactics (not sure whether you intended such a relation).
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Post by Brian Ború on May 27, 2024 23:04:56 GMT
Hi felixs, before I wrote down these ideas I certainly playtested them. I matched my most unbalanced historical armies against each other, Norse Irish and Vikings, the vikings all 4Bd plus 1x4Bw, the Irish with 3xPs, 4Ax Gen, 2x4Ax, 5x3Ax, 1xCv. And I tested it on a billiard table terrain, everywhere only GG, but littoral. Both in straight lines of 9 units. The vikings with their flanks 2 deep, their general in the middle as a reserve, bows in the center. The Irish had their 3 Ps in front, followed directly by their battle line of Ax and Cv in their middle. I can't recall anymore all of the details, but normally this would have been an easy win for the viking steamroller, and indeed they won, killing 5 units in the end. But: the Irish had a good start and achieved right away 3 kills and 0 losses! Their middle Ps slowed the vikings long enough, so that the Cavalry managed to break up their shield wall, then the Ax achieved overlaps against the Bows and killed them, and then they outflanked more of the blades and killed one, and another. Then suddenly the tide turned. Bad PIP rolls kept the victorious Irish right frozen to the ground, while good PIP rolls let the viking blades turn the Irish left and killed their general. I must admit, I was quite surprised by this outcome. This was a fun game! But maybe it all was only luck... ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) And to answer your last question: The Ps zoc the enemy, in battle they prevail or recoil or flee, and then their friends of the main line still keep the enemy zocked, so he has to fight it out with the units I chose for him, or he falls back, creating a gap. In the end (as always) it all depends on how you spend your PIPs and how you exploit any small advantage...
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Post by jim1973 on May 28, 2024 0:59:47 GMT
IMHO, it is important to keep in mind the intention of the author of the rules. I believe that coming to grips with the enemy quickly is intended by the author and the rules designed in that way. We only have 12 elements on 2x2ft board. I don't think PB intended a lot of manoeuvring nor added complication of a skirmisher screen. Most (not all) historical battle reports are "line up and have at it" affairs. I think DBA does what it says on the label and does it quite well. There are lots of other rulesets that allow more manoeuvring and added detail like skirmish lines. Some people like these added decisions. They certainly take longer to play. And if you break it down, many of them end up as 10-15 units with command rules that let you freely move about half of them when near the enemy. Very similar to DBA.
Cheers
Jim
PS I haven't forgot about the concern regarding Ps holding ground or guarding flanks. I've been away but will get onto it this weekend
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